The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry • Hacker News Board

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#541

Post by mardifoufs » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 4:38 PM UTC

GeoAtreides wrote: post #495

mirekrusin wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're talking about distant future then any form of work is abuse and access to levitating transport falls under basic human needs obviously.

No, I'm talking about right now. Or as soon as possible. There is no need, in 2023 AD, to work as hard as in the 1900 just to survive. Absolutely no need. Food and shelter could be easily provided for everyone. And if we can't "easily" provided it, then we should strive to do so. We have to shift from old patterns of thinking to new ways, we have to realize that the only thing holding us down is an outdated view of t…

You are only saying that because you come from a position of privilege, where your work is loosely correlated with your actual survival. I don't understand how you could think food and shelter could be provided for everyone, easily, withiur ignoring all the people who work super hard to provide you just that. Unless you just mean that it could be provided easily for some people, as long as the lower stratas keep working to produce what's needed.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#542

Post by valdiorn » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 4:39 PM UTC

DrBazza wrote: post #537

jedberg wrote: post #142

There are plenty of talented C++ programmers. They just don't want to be abused by trading firms or work in that culture. Even paying them more won't work, because no amount of money is worth that abuse. I interviewed at a trading firm once, while I was working at Netflix (because Netflix encouraged us to interview for outside jobs at least once a year). The comp would have been double my Netflix salary. But I would…

You didn't take a job because it's 8.30 to 5 and because of some undefined 'abuse'? That's what you've written? Maybe it really isn't for you. On the other hand I've worked in this industry for 30 years, and done those hours, and longer, for 30 years, and enjoyed more or less every minute of it. I've flown all over the world, and been to various events and conferences that I would not have had a chance to do in anoth…

I worked for the G company I'm assuming you're referring to :) I left because of the insane paranoid culture.

I do however share the same sentiment as the parent poster - I interviewed for XTX for a c++ role when I quit and during one of the interviews I asked about on-call rota and out of hours work.

The answer I got: "oh, it's not too bad. We have a weekly rota, you can expect to get called maybe 3 or 4 times... a night".

I noped the fuck out of that.

Others like Citadel and Jump were similar stories. Many have made offers but a combination of insane out of hours requirements and non compete clauses means I've told them all to shove it, and took an "underpaying" role to achieve some kind of balance in my life.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#543

Post by FromTheSteppe » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 4:41 PM UTC

I'd love to have a C++ job. I didn't study for an A GPA to move data in and out of databases all day.

But I currently live in a 3rd world country which has no software C++ jobs. And I can't get a foreign C++ job because I don't have C++ experience.

Imagine wanting to leave all your networks, friends, family, and culture; get a lifestyle pay cut and still not get a C++ job. All skilled migrants must get a masters degree or PhD in their destination country just to get their get their CV viewed by an actual person.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#544

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 4:42 PM UTC

DrBazza wrote: post #537

jedberg wrote: post #142

There are plenty of talented C++ programmers. They just don't want to be abused by trading firms or work in that culture. Even paying them more won't work, because no amount of money is worth that abuse. I interviewed at a trading firm once, while I was working at Netflix (because Netflix encouraged us to interview for outside jobs at least once a year). The comp would have been double my Netflix salary. But I would…

You didn't take a job because it's 8.30 to 5 and because of some undefined 'abuse'? That's what you've written? Maybe it really isn't for you. On the other hand I've worked in this industry for 30 years, and done those hours, and longer, for 30 years, and enjoyed more or less every minute of it. I've flown all over the world, and been to various events and conferences that I would not have had a chance to do in anoth…

[deleted]

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#545

Post by smabie » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 4:43 PM UTC

danny_codes wrote: post #389

smabie wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reality: these jobs pay better than pretty much any other dev job in the world and in the last 2 yrs the salaries have skyrocketed even higher.

Unfortunately HFT is a cancer on the earth, which makes it less appealing.

It's pretty unlikely that you even know anything about it

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#546

Post by valdiorn » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

elteto wrote: post #530

jedberg wrote: post #142

There are plenty of talented C++ programmers. They just don't want to be abused by trading firms or work in that culture. Even paying them more won't work, because no amount of money is worth that abuse. I interviewed at a trading firm once, while I was working at Netflix (because Netflix encouraged us to interview for outside jobs at least once a year). The comp would have been double my Netflix salary. But I would…

Them: “$500k to $1M cash compensation, you have to maintain some opsec and be in the office during regular working hours.” You: “This is OUTRAGEOUS! Hard pass.” We sw devs can be a spoiled bunch sometimes.

Parent poster explained this very poorly, but it's not as simple as "office hours are x to y".

You are responsible for a trading system that's turning over hundreds of millions a day. If you're not in the office by 8am or whatever, that's not a "hey you were a bit late this morning" - it's a major "wake up the CEO the engineer on call is not present and we're not trading"! It's BAD. your train ran late? Doesn't matter, you're responsible. Your boiler exploded? Leave your house flooded, work comes first.

It's EXTREME pressure all around. I've done overnight support for a fairly infamous quant fund and I'm still on medication 5 years later because of the anxiety disorder I developed whilst working there. To this date the Blackberry ringtone triggers a PTSD response and I get physically sick if I hear it.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#547

Post by klyrs » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

conductr wrote: post #401

dennis_jeeves1 wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any programmer worth their salt can march into a nasty codebase of whatever language, Correct, I wonder why people both technical and non-technical focus on this aspect a lot. ( my guess is that they are incompetent themselves). Agreed, if you want someone for two or three months you probably want someone who knows the language and it's ecosystem pretty well. Any work that is more than six months should be nearly l…

> Any work that is more than six months should be nearly language independent. I'm not sure this is true in finance. Speed matters. A lot. It's called high frequency trading for a reason. These firms will spend a million bucks just to make their fiber optic cables 1 foot shorter.

Just the kind of short-sighted idiocy that keeps good people out of the industry. How long does it take to get that network upgrade installed? It doesn't happen overnight. It takes me a week to get decent at a new language, a month to get good. That's, what, $10-20k on "training" assuming an output of zero in that first month? That's peanuts.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#548

Post by boppo1 » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 4:49 PM UTC

olvy0 wrote: post #246

rizzaxc wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

do you have a good template (pun intended) on how to best learn modern c++? coming from Go and Typescript which have very mature devX tooling, c++ is a landmine to navigate. and that's when I already have professional experience with it (the place just didn't have strong c++ culture)

Try watching the "back to basics" videos from the last 4 years' cppcons. But that's mostly learning modern paradigms of the language. If you also mean the tooling, then it depends: Learn CMake which is sort of an industry standard. There are books and videos, but for a concrete experience, try looking through the CMakeLists.txt of some non-trivial C++ open source project.

>CMakeLists.txt

You say that like there's one for a project but I've been learning Blender's codebase and every folder has a CMakeLists.txt. What gives?

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#549

Post by pyuser583 » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 5:23 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #142

There are plenty of talented C++ programmers. They just don't want to be abused by trading firms or work in that culture. Even paying them more won't work, because no amount of money is worth that abuse. I interviewed at a trading firm once, while I was working at Netflix (because Netflix encouraged us to interview for outside jobs at least once a year). The comp would have been double my Netflix salary. But I would…

How secure was the job? Netflix has a reputation for firing quickly.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#550

Post by elteto » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 5:24 PM UTC

valdiorn wrote: post #546

elteto wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Them: “$500k to $1M cash compensation, you have to maintain some opsec and be in the office during regular working hours.” You: “This is OUTRAGEOUS! Hard pass.” We sw devs can be a spoiled bunch sometimes.

Parent poster explained this very poorly, but it's not as simple as "office hours are x to y". You are responsible for a trading system that's turning over hundreds of millions a day. If you're not in the office by 8am or whatever, that's not a "hey you were a bit late this morning" - it's a major "wake up the CEO the engineer on call is not present and we're not trading"! It's BAD. your train ran late? Doesn't matte…

I'm sorry to hear about your experience, that sounds rough. I do know that support roles in the finance industry hit _hard_ and the difference between one person's work environment can be the complete opposite of someone else in the same position in a different company, or even in the same company but a different team.

I spoke with someone recently who is in sales for a large finance behemoth we've all heard about and even that person was like "Goldman is the worst, I'd never go there."

But, most developers in quant roles, or close to quant roles (trading infrastructure, research support, etc) do not experience anything like this. On call is rare for these positions and they have regular work schedules with normal hours. Plus the compensation is multiples of what someone in an overnight support role will get paid. You probably know all this.