Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work • Hacker News Board

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#251

Post by uxcolumbo » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 9:09 AM UTC

3vidence wrote: post #203

908B64B197 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the thing: mass layoffs make it easier to get rid of people with performance or behavioral problems in a lot of jurisdictions. I had to let someone go at a company we had just acquired in Montreal a few years ago. The guy was underperforming and had a huge attitude problem (bursts of anger actually). One of the frequent arguments he had with everyone was that he insisted he didn't need to learn French to live…

I usually just casually lerk on HN for topics I'm interested in learning about or generally topics I don't have expertise in. This whole layoff discussion had been an eye opener for me as to how uninformed a lot of comments are and just made on speculation. I was there at the North acquisition, the vast majority of people kept there jobs and so did the founders. People keep talking about these layoffs like they were…

Thanks for chiming in, otherwise I would have thought the parent’s comment was correct.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#252

Post by technick » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 9:09 AM UTC

I feel what you're putting out and hopefully one day we will be a better species. I worked for a company in 2013 which will always be the benchmark that I compare other companies against. They treated me like a person that mattered and the members of my team were definitely my family. The company cared enough to give everyone catered breakfast and lunch, massages twice a week, a game room, and the freedom to work on projects that mattered to us. I had to complete a briggs myers personality test in the beginning, came back as ENTJ. HR brought in a coach to talk about how I can apply my strengths internally to make the company a better place and how I can personally grow. It was a great experience and I doubt another company like this exists. I spent 3 years there as a linux sys admin (it became devsecops towards the end). I grew more in this job than I did in any previous position I held. When I was laid off, I started questioning my self identity and went thru some serious depression of missing my co-workers.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#253

Post by jimnotgym » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 9:17 AM UTC

> The downsized companies, however, were outperformed consistently by the nondownsized ones

I think this misses a piece of logic. A reason companies downsize because their growth plans didn't come through. Like at the moment where tech companies scaled up for the pandemic imagining growth would continue at that rate.

So now we are saying that companies that made a sound strategic plan perform better than companies that had to rip their plan up and start again. Layoffs are the effect, not the cause.

It is childish to say that layoffs don't work. When a company runs out of cash it dies. Losing staff is hard, but if you can't afford them you can't afford them. Most managers hate layoffs too, even a psychopathic manager would see it as a failure.

So whilst layoffs may set back your plan, at least the company survives.

For clarity, there is no excuse for being shitty to staff during layoffs. US labour laws seem particularly weak in this area.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#254

Post by majikaja » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 9:22 AM UTC

It was always going to be either layoffs/comp cuts or no big bubble in salaries and hiring to begin with.

Surely there's much worse to come? Look at how much compensation came down in investment banks since the 00s. It's not conceivable that these large firms require tens of thousands of geniuses to function.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#255

Post by kaushikc » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 9:24 AM UTC

outside1234 wrote: post #112

karaterobot wrote: post #16

> Imagine you had a dog... Imagine that instead of a dog, it's an adult who makes their own choices and gets paid money, and who signed a contract where the terms of employment were spelled out very clearly..

Imagine it was a contract where the only two options were "eat" or "not eat"

Nobody wants to really take responsibility of humans being able to eat.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#256

Post by uxcolumbo » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 9:45 AM UTC

WeylandYutani wrote: post #154

Apocryphon wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You being a person is not mutually exclusive with any of those other sentiments. They are able to coexist.

After WW2 they found out that a lot of the Germans who commited war crimes were completely normal and decent people just following orders. Managers aren't bad guys but they WILL follow orders.

Yes, be a good German, right?

You can say no… I did when my then boss asked me to fire people because he personally didn’t like them.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#257

Post by uxcolumbo » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 10:17 AM UTC

lgsilver wrote: post #64

This is a completely naive view of companies and how they work. An alternative metaphor is this: imagine you got a dog, raised him, lost your sources of income and couldn’t afford to feed him. You kept him anyway out of pride or loyalty or whatever, and watched as he withered away without adequate resources to make him thrive. At the same time, others were looking for dogs and were fully willing to feed them and supp…

That might be true in an imaginary world, but in the real world lots of dogs end up in shelters and some get killed because they can’t be rehomed.

During the pandemic lots of ppl got pets… acting on impulse. Now they realise a pet is a lot of work and it’s not for them.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#258

Post by jdmoreira » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 10:58 AM UTC

If your employer is a corporation and you are loyal to them, I'm sorry to inform you but you are very gullible and naive. Be loyal to people and be loyal to principles instead.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#259

Post by fithisux » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 11:05 AM UTC

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #222

ricardobeat wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re assuming downsizing is a consequence of financial trouble. It has not been the case for almost every layoff that happened recently.

How do you reckon that? All the big tech companies had huge income declines.

This is what they say! But is this supported by data?

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#260

Post by refurb » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 11:50 AM UTC

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #233

refurb wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isnt true. If the demand for brain surgeons doubled overnight, no amount of wage hike is going to magically double the supply of brain surgeons.

Sure it won't double it overnight, but if we give people enough time to train (4-8 years?) then I think it would have a significant effect. Though this example is poor because the quantity of new brain surgeons is restricted by various regulations and agreements (so we'd also have to assume those went away). If you look at an unregulated field like software I think it's pretty clear that the huge increase in demand f…

Right, so shortages can exist for any skillset that requires more than a few months to acquire.