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Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

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Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#141

Post by bink »

jdmichal wrote: post #111
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a big difference between "things change" and "mass top-down layoffs are an effective way to adapt to change"! I worked at a company that tried to avoid mass layoffs at all costs. Whenever it became obvious that change was necessary, they'd do little cuts here and there, or they'd force people into roles they weren't familiar with (think front-end devs moved to cloud backend dev) to try to salvage people at…

Exactly this. Bleeding small numbers of people is absolutely terrible for morale. Everyone will be wondering whether it's their turn this week, and that will 100% have knock-on effects. If you have to do a layoff, your goal should be to make it deep enough to only do it once and allow the healing process to start. If your goal is to avoid layoffs, the solution is to build a war chest with months or even years of runw…

I'd argue that bleeding small numbers of people randomly and/or arbitrarily is terrible for morale. Firing those who aren't performing or whose teams aren't contributing is actually good for morale. People know who is and isn't contributing and are far more understanding when the layoffs are the result of failed projects or unnecessary cost centers.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#142

Post by cuteboy19 »

recursive wrote: post #114
cuteboy19 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to prove that CPR works. The burden of proof is not on anyone to prove that CPR does not work. In that sense the idea that the difference becomes insignificant after just 3 years is quite damning

Damning to which side of the argument? Sounds like evidence that the layoffs worked to me.

If an action makes no difference then it makes no sense to actively do it.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#143

Post by mlyle »

cuteboy19 wrote: post #142
recursive wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damning to which side of the argument? Sounds like evidence that the layoffs worked to me.

If an action makes no difference then it makes no sense to actively do it.

Assuming the companies that layoff are in equivalent situation to those that didn't.

If the companies that lay people off are much worse off than the average comparison company, and they look the same as comparison companies after 3 years... then it sure makes sense to do it.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#144

Post by simonh »

lapcat wrote: post #65
dtdimond wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Group 1: companies in a good enough financial situation to not need layoffs Group 2: companies in a dire financial situation requiring layoffs After 3 years, what group would you expect to perform better financially? And if we told you it was a tie, you might ask: what did group 2 to improve their situation? Layoffs? Ok, sounds like they worked.

> Group 1: companies in a good enough financial situation to not need layoffs Group 2: companies in a dire financial situation requiring layoffs None of the big tech companies are in a "dire" financial situation. Indeed, some of them have just announced modest revenue increases this week. Yet they still conducted big layoffs. Did they "need" to do it? (Note in contrast that Apple announced a significant revenue decre…

> Apple announced a significant revenue decrease yet didn't panic and do layoffs.

But then they also didn’t massively increase their headcount over the previous 3 years. Steady as she goes, as always.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#145

Post by 908B64B197 »

commandlinefan wrote: post #54
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #31

Nobody likes getting laid off. But it's weird to see all of these think pieces implying that once someone is hired into a job, that job should exist forever. Things change. Company growth isn't monotonically increasing. Not all positions will exist forever. Joining a company was never a guarantee that you'd have a paycheck and work to do until you decided to leave. Also, pointing out that companies that did layoffs h…

> Nobody likes getting laid off. Much better than being fired for poor performance, too - "laid off because the company wasn't doing well" doesn't look that terrible on a resume.

Here's the thing: mass layoffs make it easier to get rid of people with performance or behavioral problems in a lot of jurisdictions.

I had to let someone go at a company we had just acquired in Montreal a few years ago. The guy was underperforming and had a huge attitude problem (bursts of anger actually). One of the frequent arguments he had with everyone was that he insisted he didn't need to learn French to live in Montreal and was somehow hostile to the language. I honestly questioned why he immigrated there in the first place.

Since this was an acquisition, it made it easy for us to do so. All we had to do was not to include him in the positions that would join the new company. Simple paperwork. He seemed to really want to come to the US but the performance and behavioral issues made it a big no. I don't think he would have passed the stricter requirements anyways.

Some companies like Google will even have engineers at certain acquired companies re-interview to transfer. The North acquisition was a poster-child for that: almost nobody got a job at Google, not even the founders. All they kept were the patents originally purchased from Intel.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#146

Post by perfecthjrjth »

techsupporter wrote: post #119
fsociety wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is saying you should have 100% job security, or never be let go / fired. People are saying that these mass layoffs and the way they are conducted are harmful to society and not as beneficial to the business as CEOs and investors want to believe. Layoffs are not always a result of declining performance. We have seen several now where quarterly results point to increased performance but layoffs still occur as an…

> People are saying that these mass layoffs and the way they are conducted are harmful to society and not as beneficial to the business as CEOs and investors want to believe. Exactly this, though I also propose as the end of your sentence, "...as CEOs and investors claim." We get told a lot of false or true-but-in-the-abstract motives. The McSweeney's article[0] nails it perfectly for me. I am in the gap in the middl…

Stable pensions are gone, that's why so much hustle everywhere: ranging from drop shipping to becoming slum lords through BRRRR investing.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#147

Post by recursive »

cuteboy19 wrote: post #142
recursive wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damning to which side of the argument? Sounds like evidence that the layoffs worked to me.

If an action makes no difference then it makes no sense to actively do it.

Companies do layoffs when things are bad.

"makes no difference" != "ended up in the same place"

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#148

Post by Ancalagon »

Crazy seeing some of the comments in here supporting the layoffs when just a few decades ago people were up in arms about IBMs layoffs because working for one company for a significant portion of your career was seen as the norm.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#149

Post by 0xmarcin »

Having a single source of income is becoming more and more problematic in current times. If you are married you have at least two sources of income, that may be the biggest _economic_ advantage of the marriage. Those layoffs make me realise why so many people are interested in FIRE movement and passive income. Either you have savings (but fiat currency discourages that) or some source of extra cash flow (be it minimum that allows you to survive) or you are at the mercy of current economy climate (be it FED printing or FED tightening or stock market frenzy). Maybe the universal basic income will be come the solution to this problem in the future?

With more automation and unstable world economy we will probably see more layoffs. Entire industries may go extinct.

Yes I am on more pessimistic side, but the last decade was great for software engineers and as the Bible says after 7 good years there may be 7 bad years coming.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#150

Post by twelve40 »

recursive wrote: post #114
cuteboy19 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to prove that CPR works. The burden of proof is not on anyone to prove that CPR does not work. In that sense the idea that the difference becomes insignificant after just 3 years is quite damning

Damning to which side of the argument? Sounds like evidence that the layoffs worked to me.

yeah it's like doing CPR on a healthy person (profitable company). of course it works! but is it necessary?
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