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Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

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Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#151

Post by pm90 »

jeffwask wrote: post #116
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #31

Nobody likes getting laid off. But it's weird to see all of these think pieces implying that once someone is hired into a job, that job should exist forever. Things change. Company growth isn't monotonically increasing. Not all positions will exist forever. Joining a company was never a guarantee that you'd have a paycheck and work to do until you decided to leave. Also, pointing out that companies that did layoffs h…

There are two different contexts around layoffs. 1) The company is struggling, losing money, etc and needs to tackle corrective action before everyone loses their jobs. 2) The company is generating record revenues, profits are high, but growth will be 4% instead of 5% so we need layoffs. There seem to be a staggering number of layoffs from camp two. > But it's weird to see all of these think pieces implying that once…

> Investors are pulling their hair out because Apple only made $117 billion. Is anyone really going to miss that $4 billion? You'll hear investors and talking heads calling for corrective layoffs when in reality nothing needs to be done. They are still ridiculously profitable and will continue to be.

I feel like this is hitting on something that hasn't been given enough attention: what happens when a company doesn't meet Wall St. "predictions". The consensus view (at least in the mainstream media) appears to be that this means that the company has "under-performed" and thus should be punished. But... why? Maybe the Wall St analysts were the ones not performing well enough? Where is the accountability in the other direction?

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#152

Post by pm90 »

0xmarcin wrote: post #149

Having a single source of income is becoming more and more problematic in current times. If you are married you have at least two sources of income, that may be the biggest _economic_ advantage of the marriage. Those layoffs make me realise why so many people are interested in FIRE movement and passive income. Either you have savings (but fiat currency discourages that) or some source of extra cash flow (be it minimu…

As long as we continue digitizing the economy, there will be a demand for software engineers. What might change is the kind of software engineers. Luckily, software engineers can certainly cross train and quickly pick up new skills much more quickly than workers in other industries, and for massive payoffs.

I do think its somewhat unreasonable to be in a position where you do similar work year after year though (similar to e.g. what doctors or lawyers do) and expect to keep getting the same income. That's the deal with Software (or really, any creative field): you get paid really well but you can't stagnate.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#153

Post by WeylandYutani »

fsociety wrote: post #66
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #31

Nobody likes getting laid off. But it's weird to see all of these think pieces implying that once someone is hired into a job, that job should exist forever. Things change. Company growth isn't monotonically increasing. Not all positions will exist forever. Joining a company was never a guarantee that you'd have a paycheck and work to do until you decided to leave. Also, pointing out that companies that did layoffs h…

No one is saying you should have 100% job security, or never be let go / fired. People are saying that these mass layoffs and the way they are conducted are harmful to society and not as beneficial to the business as CEOs and investors want to believe. Layoffs are not always a result of declining performance. We have seen several now where quarterly results point to increased performance but layoffs still occur as an…

America could have a social safety net like European countries. If people really think it is harmful to society tax companies and implement unemployment benefits.

But you and I both know that will neve happen lol.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#154

Post by WeylandYutani »

Apocryphon wrote: post #95
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Absolutely. Nearly everyone I know left college doe-eyed and ready to dedicate a piece of their soul to their shiny new job When did you graduate college? In the social media era, the sentiment has been more about "fuck you, pay me" and "H.R. is not your friend" type ideology. This is especially true in recent years, where a lot of college graduates have been exposed to years of /r/antiwork in their daily Reddit br…

You being a person is not mutually exclusive with any of those other sentiments. They are able to coexist.

After WW2 they found out that a lot of the Germans who commited war crimes were completely normal and decent people just following orders. Managers aren't bad guys but they WILL follow orders.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#155

Post by Apocryphon »

bradleyjg wrote: post #138
HarryHirsch wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an assertion of belief, not a statement of fact. You'd have to bring arguments why the interests of workers and owners are congruent (which they are not).

I don’t need to do any such thing. Just point out that no reasonable alternative has been proposed by anyone and conclude that it’s therefore infantile whining.

German-style Rhine capitalism with co-determination for labor unions and a robust social safety net that isn’t even as leftist as the Scandinavian countries.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#156

Post by Apocryphon »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #135
dougmwne wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. Nearly everyone I know left college doe-eyed and ready to dedicate a piece of their soul to their shiny new job. Everyone learned otherwise one person at a time. Some worked for “we’re all a family” companies and were able to remain innocent ignorants till the day the axe fell.

The Dilbert comic strip has been running since 1989 and was about the life of engineers at something that nominally looked like a tech company and, even then, people were remarking that a lot of its humor worked because it was true. If anyone graduated without the awareness that the working world wasn't going to necessarily be all rainbows and unicorns, they weren't paying attention.

And yet people are willing to give a lot of credence to pointy headed bosses, as many discussions on HN will attest to.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#157

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

jeffwask wrote: post #116
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #31

Nobody likes getting laid off. But it's weird to see all of these think pieces implying that once someone is hired into a job, that job should exist forever. Things change. Company growth isn't monotonically increasing. Not all positions will exist forever. Joining a company was never a guarantee that you'd have a paycheck and work to do until you decided to leave. Also, pointing out that companies that did layoffs h…

There are two different contexts around layoffs. 1) The company is struggling, losing money, etc and needs to tackle corrective action before everyone loses their jobs. 2) The company is generating record revenues, profits are high, but growth will be 4% instead of 5% so we need layoffs. There seem to be a staggering number of layoffs from camp two. > But it's weird to see all of these think pieces implying that once…

> "Is anyone really going to miss that $4 billion?"

Yes, the people who own the company will, i.e. shareholders. The majority are not some cartoonish greedy fatcats either; they're ordinary people like you and I who have retirement investments in stocks and mutual funds.

Moreover, if you think employees at FAANGs and big tech companies aren't on-board with this laser focus on share price, remember that a big, big chunk of their compensation is in equity, whether options, stock grants, employee stock purchase programs, etc. During the boom times, plenty of people in the software industry kept a live stock ticker feed on their desktops to keep track of how filthy rich they were getting and it was a frequent topic of casual conversation.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#158

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

jonny_eh wrote: post #118
abeppu wrote: post #85

I think the crappy thing here is because upper management wants to plan a layoff in extreme secrecy, they put themselves in the position of not being able to consult with the parties that have the most context. The cuts end up being crude and poorly targeted because of this secrecy. Because the assumption is that an employee who is being laid off, or thinks they may be laid off, becomes a liability immediately, no kn…

Makes me wonder why employees are expected to give two weeks notice when they choose to leave, write docs detailing knowledge transfer, etc. Why can't we just "disappear", as if we were laid off?

You can; no one's stopping you. People do it all the time.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#160

Post by chester_the_dog »

Whether it’s good or bad for business, the practice of layoffs is becoming more widely accepted. This can serve as a reminder to employees not to become complacent, which is one reason that companies do it. An unfortunate consequence is that employees become more likely to game the system to keep their jobs. Gaming the system can take many forms : avoiding risky assignments, covering up chronic problems, and blaming others. Once people see that these approaches result in greater job security then the incentives for doing the right thing become obscured. At my last job, a cyber-security startup that had a large layoff, this process of gaming the system ruined the software engineering culture. No one wanted to fix a bug, or talk to a customer, or implement a new process, without first checking to see how it would affect their job security.
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