Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work • Hacker News Board

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#31

Post by PragmaticPulp » Fri, Feb 03, 2023, 5:14 PM UTC

Nobody likes getting laid off. But it's weird to see all of these think pieces implying that once someone is hired into a job, that job should exist forever.

Things change. Company growth isn't monotonically increasing. Not all positions will exist forever. Joining a company was never a guarantee that you'd have a paycheck and work to do until you decided to leave.

Also, pointing out that companies that did layoffs had worse performance than those that didn't have layoffs is an impressive example of missing the point. Layoffs usually are a result of declining performance, not the cause of it.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#32

Post by haswell » Fri, Feb 03, 2023, 5:14 PM UTC

mattikus wrote: post #14

bradleyjg wrote: post #6

This place isn't your home, these people aren't your friends and your executive leadership would run you over with their cars if you stood between them and revenue growth. Your relationship to work changes forever. You will never again believe that you are "critical" to the company or that the company is interested in you as a person. This has always always been the case. Grow up.

I think you're being a bit uncharitable and jaded here. For many, events like these are actually the catalyst that causes one to "grow up", which is what the author is conveying.

And it’s just one of many ways people can come to realize this over time.

I’ve been fortunate enough to avoid the experience of layoffs, but learned the same lesson by pouring too much of myself into a role and burning out.

Until you’ve directly experienced the reasons work isn’t a family, etc. it can be hard to avoid falling into the trap of thinking that it is.

I would also say that most takes on this are a bit too binary, and some of my longest lasting and strongest friendships came from past jobs. I think the key to use work as an opportunity to establish those relationships instead of a ready-made support system, and not extending the personal aspect of those relationships into workplace behavior (e.g. doing more work because it’s “family”).

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#33

Post by ok_coo » Fri, Feb 03, 2023, 5:14 PM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #6

This place isn't your home, these people aren't your friends and your executive leadership would run you over with their cars if you stood between them and revenue growth. Your relationship to work changes forever. You will never again believe that you are "critical" to the company or that the company is interested in you as a person. This has always always been the case. Grow up.

While I agree with this perspective, these companies go out of their way to market to their employees to make the job their whole identity. They are not blameless.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#34

Post by iso1631 » Fri, Feb 03, 2023, 5:15 PM UTC

ilostmyshoes wrote: post #7

skee8383 wrote: post #2

The higher educated white collar class is coming to terms with the fact they are just as disposable as the rest of us.

We are all workers, we are the working class whether we are educated or not. The capital owners want the working class to fight amongst themselves because it allows them to continue enriching themselves off the backs of the working class. Even if you own some stocks or have a 401k, if you depend on a salary to pay your bills then you are a worker

It annoys me in the UK how people claim that "Tommy who 'does up houses' and flips them or rents them out" is a "working class builder", where as Billy isn't working class because he types on a keyboard.

In the UK working people, especially those earning above minimum wage, are taxed far more than the capitalists of the world like Tommy who can structure his income to pay just 30% marginal taxes rather than 60% plus.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#35

Post by npteljes » Fri, Feb 03, 2023, 5:16 PM UTC

I find it serves one better to deal with feelings directly. Going on such a long roundabout is a distraction. Do we really care about how large companies deal with their problems? Are we running one, do they depend on our judgment? I think not.

So, the more straightforward way is to realize that one has been fucked over. At first it doesn't matter who's responsible for that, just the fact that one feels that it happened, and that it feels like shit. Talking to people about that helps. It someone is worth their salt, they'll tell that this has always been the case - the one that cares about a person the most, and especially the one that can do the most, is the person themselves. And another important realization is that most of the time, this doesn't happen because of specific cruelty - most of the time, it's ignorance. The other party didn't care to consider the impact of their act, and that is normal. There's not enough energy to care about all. And even if we care, sometimes things must be done. Or we need to take part, even if we know the impact and don't want that.

I do believe that this all doesn't need to make one jaded and cynical all the time, about life and people. In fact I believe the opposite: that one needs to find a way to love all this, in spite of all of these things working in such a way. After all, to love, one needs to know. Because if one doesn't know, they don't know what they love in the first place.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#36

Post by xwdv » Fri, Feb 03, 2023, 5:16 PM UTC

CuriouslyC wrote: post #21

karaterobot wrote: post #16

> Imagine you had a dog... Imagine that instead of a dog, it's an adult who makes their own choices and gets paid money, and who signed a contract where the terms of employment were spelled out very clearly..

And imagine you told that dog how much you loved it and how important it was to you, but only paid attention to it when it was misbehaving, fed it recalled Chinese dog food and avoided taking it to the vet, then decided to put it down the second it needed any expensive care. All the while telling your friends what a dog lover you are, and what a great relationship you have with your dog.

And imagine still, that instead of a dog, it was an adult, and you shake hands agreeing to hire their skills in exchange for regular payment, but when their skills are someday no longer required or adequate, and that day will come, the payments will cease and they will have to peddle their skills elsewhere.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#37

Post by tikhonj » Fri, Feb 03, 2023, 5:17 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #31

Nobody likes getting laid off. But it's weird to see all of these think pieces implying that once someone is hired into a job, that job should exist forever. Things change. Company growth isn't monotonically increasing. Not all positions will exist forever. Joining a company was never a guarantee that you'd have a paycheck and work to do until you decided to leave. Also, pointing out that companies that did layoffs h…

There's a big difference between "things change" and "mass top-down layoffs are an effective way to adapt to change"!

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#38

Post by jrockway » Fri, Feb 03, 2023, 5:17 PM UTC

mattikus wrote: post #14

bradleyjg wrote: post #6

This place isn't your home, these people aren't your friends and your executive leadership would run you over with their cars if you stood between them and revenue growth. Your relationship to work changes forever. You will never again believe that you are "critical" to the company or that the company is interested in you as a person. This has always always been the case. Grow up.

I think you're being a bit uncharitable and jaded here. For many, events like these are actually the catalyst that causes one to "grow up", which is what the author is conveying.

I don't know if I agree that "growing up" and "becoming bitter and cynical" are the same thing. Getting more bitter as you age might be something to work on with a therapist, not something to aspire to.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#39

Post by PragmaticPulp » Fri, Feb 03, 2023, 5:17 PM UTC

dougmwne wrote: post #22

mattikus wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're being a bit uncharitable and jaded here. For many, events like these are actually the catalyst that causes one to "grow up", which is what the author is conveying.

Absolutely. Nearly everyone I know left college doe-eyed and ready to dedicate a piece of their soul to their shiny new job. Everyone learned otherwise one person at a time. Some worked for “we’re all a family” companies and were able to remain innocent ignorants till the day the axe fell.

> Absolutely. Nearly everyone I know left college doe-eyed and ready to dedicate a piece of their soul to their shiny new job

When did you graduate college? In the social media era, the sentiment has been more about "fuck you, pay me" and "H.R. is not your friend" type ideology. This is especially true in recent years, where a lot of college graduates have been exposed to years of /r/antiwork in their daily Reddit browsing before they even get their first jobs.

A lot of juniors want to do good work and produce good results, but it's common for them to believe that corporations are evil, capitalism is a failed ideology, and that it's virtuous to minimize their labor input while maximizing their compensation. It can take a while to convince some of these new hires that as their manager, I'm a person too.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#40

Post by zwkrt » Fri, Feb 03, 2023, 5:17 PM UTC

coliveira wrote: post #20

I think Amazon, Google, and Meta workers should band together and get funding to start competitors to these companies. If there were some smart investors, that would be a great way to start a new company.

I've worked for Amazon and have friends that work for Meta. As much as it pains me to say it, I don't think that as a whole those who were laid off would make a very good company. There are exceptions, like I think Amazon made such heavy reductions in the Alexa org that there were probably some very competent engineers let go. But mostly the layoffs affected (1) HR and product, (2) low performers, and (3) people with very little political savvy. This doesn't sound like it would make a good company.