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Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

matduggan.com

131–140 of 279 posts

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#131

Layoffs work, I just think companies tend to layoff the wrong folks. I had 7 layers of management between myself (IC) and the CEO at my last job with just a couple thousand people. How much of a “multiplier effect” can those people truly have? What ended up happening was feature creep ran too large, the company scrambled to hire engineers to keep up with pace of development, then the debt caught up with them once int…

I think this is how Starbucks manages their ~120k US employees. They keep a max of around 8-12 direct reports per manager as their policy.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. Nearly everyone I know left college doe-eyed and ready to dedicate a piece of their soul to their shiny new job. Everyone learned otherwise one person at a time. Some worked for “we’re all a family” companies and were able to remain innocent ignorants till the day the axe fell.

> Absolutely. Nearly everyone I know left college doe-eyed and ready to dedicate a piece of their soul to their shiny new job When did you graduate college? In the social media era, the sentiment has been more about "fuck you, pay me" and "H.R. is not your friend" type ideology. This is especially true in recent years, where a lot of college graduates have been exposed to years of /r/antiwork in their daily Reddit br…

> it's virtuous to minimize their labor input while maximizing their compensation

It's not? That's what capitalism is. More productivity with fewer inputs.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#133
post #51

This place isn't your home, these people aren't your friends and your executive leadership would run you over with their cars if you stood between them and revenue growth. Your relationship to work changes forever. You will never again believe that you are "critical" to the company or that the company is interested in you as a person. This has always always been the case. Grow up.

Agreed. This is a naive point of view. The company and worker agree on some terms and if the terms stop working for either one, that's the end of the line. It sucks when that comes to be but we have to realize that we as workers in any capacity are only useful when our input aligns with the goals of the company. There is leeway, but that diminishes when time gets tough. Blue collar workers, union or no union, always…

There are those white collar who realize that along the line, those that brace company propaganda and turn carrierist and those that stay naive to be abused by the second group.

There is a reason I get along better with blue collar folks than, especially the more inexperienced, white collar ones. Usually, blue collar folks have less problems following "orders" as well. This professional discipline makes a lot of things a lot easier.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#134
post #76

Posting social media videos of "a day in the life of FANG" company showcasing the little amount of work people do doesn't work either. There's a lot of people at these companies who don't do anything meaningful and are getting paid a boat load. There's people like that in almost every company. Back from the Yahoo peak days I had multiple people tell me that all they did in a week was fix 1-2 small bugs in a day and d…

There is a very interesting trend among white collar and tech people (or people at tech companies) being laid off and finding this so hard. Well, time to grow up, lower skilled labor experiences that regularly, and those of us who were around during 2008 or the dot com bubble experienced it too. Now a new generation is learning life is not always all roses. Funny to see it on social media so.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're being a bit uncharitable and jaded here. For many, events like these are actually the catalyst that causes one to "grow up", which is what the author is conveying.

Absolutely. Nearly everyone I know left college doe-eyed and ready to dedicate a piece of their soul to their shiny new job. Everyone learned otherwise one person at a time. Some worked for “we’re all a family” companies and were able to remain innocent ignorants till the day the axe fell.

The Dilbert comic strip has been running since 1989 and was about the life of engineers at something that nominally looked like a tech company and, even then, people were remarking that a lot of its humor worked because it was true. If anyone graduated without the awareness that the working world wasn't going to necessarily be all rainbows and unicorns, they weren't paying attention.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies layoff when they're in some sort of trouble. If you don't have the cash to support the staff, you can't will that into existence. No, companies layoff when they want to spend less money paying people. Being "in some sort of trouble" is only one of many reasons why they may choose that course.

You’re missing a number of critical factors. One of them is that companies have largely abdicated performance management and managing out underperformers, and layoffs are a primary means to get this done. Another issue is that larger companies have incentives problem when headcount justifies manager-track promotions. Layoffs are a way to force them to address dead weight headcount. You should think harder about what…

Yes, I experienced this. About every year and a half, my company instructed each office to layoff a certain number. Low performers were targeted. If an office didn't have low performers, good performers were let go, and only the very best were retained. It cruelly encouraged and enforced exceptional output. It was heartbreaking, actually. But the pay was very good and we accepted it.

In that context I was told, "Tutor this guy (a fair worker, but not exceptional). We're going to let him go if he can't step it up." We worked together and I saved his job - it remains a very proud moment for me.

The company was a leader in its field, and its merciless practice of retaining only the very best performers contributed to its success.

Capitalism at its Darwinian worst, perhaps. Or its best, depending on your perspective.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#137
This was too dumb.

First, the intro with the dog analogy. If you remotely see your relationship with your employer as you being the beloved family dog, you're the problem.

Second, the author quotes a paper on downsizing in a journal and afterwards says, "[i]n all my searching I wasn't able to find any hard data which suggests layoffs either enable a company to better compete or improve earnings in the long term." However the conclusion of the very paper he references says, "[t]he findings of this field study indicate that downsizing can improve an organization's financial performance but not in the near-term.... [R]esearch strongly suggests that it likely will take three or more years for organizations to be able to truly see the financial benefits of downsizing." If you look at all the graphs in the Results section of the paper, it shows that companies who downsize started out being weaker performers than those who weren't downsizing, but a few years after downsizing they were largely able to close that underperformance gap.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This business about “fuck capitalism” and so on is also infantile, just in the opposite direction.

That's an assertion of belief, not a statement of fact. You'd have to bring arguments why the interests of workers and owners are congruent (which they are not).

I don’t need to do any such thing. Just point out that no reasonable alternative has been proposed by anyone and conclude that it’s therefore infantile whining.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#139
post #85

I think the crappy thing here is because upper management wants to plan a layoff in extreme secrecy, they put themselves in the position of not being able to consult with the parties that have the most context. The cuts end up being crude and poorly targeted because of this secrecy. Because the assumption is that an employee who is being laid off, or thinks they may be laid off, becomes a liability immediately, no kn…

I think this is an ideal, and new, cheery CEOs may espouse and even practice this to an extent. But, then I have seen these same owners become cynical after 1 or 2 bad apple employees and the demeanor shifts. Once a company grows beyond a certain threshold of employees, then the probability of having hired saboteurs increases. This is where social safety nets could play an important role in incentivizing folks to not…

> Once a company grows beyond a certain threshold of employees, then the probability of having hired saboteurs increases.

But is the layoff really the first time having these employees was dangerous? If you can't trust your staff (and sometimes you can't) then don't you need policies even in good times that prevent them from doing dangerous stuff solo? E.g. the number of people who can drop your production users table should be tiny, merges to the main branch require a review+approval from someone other than the author, viewing PII data is logged etc etc.

> This is where social safety nets could play an important role in incentivizing folks to not worry, thus reducing the likelihood that they attempt to sabotage a company on their way out.

I don't think the social safety net is sufficient incentive. I think the components that create alignment are:

- severance is equiv to multiple months of _total_ compensation, such that people who are let go have a good shot at ending up ahead financially by getting a new job faster than that. For this reason, they're not necessarily even that upset.

- all employees, whether departing or retained should be _given_ some additional chunk of equity, possibly with some restriction which prevents them from selling for k months? Extending the exercise window is not enough, if some people have options which are underwater for that full period. Everyone then still has a material reason to want the company to do well. Retained employees who are likely asked to do more work do not feel that the departing employees got a better deal.

Re: Layoffs Are Cruel and Don't Work

#140

This was too dumb. First, the intro with the dog analogy. If you remotely see your relationship with your employer as you being the beloved family dog, you're the problem. Second, the author quotes a paper on downsizing in a journal and afterwards says, "[i]n all my searching I wasn't able to find any hard data which suggests layoffs either enable a company to better compete or improve earnings in the long term." How…

Nice find (and makes sense).
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