The Oil Thieves of Nigeria • Hacker News Board

Re: The Oil Thieves of Nigeria

#21

Post by pydry » Fri, Feb 03, 2023, 12:44 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #20

pydry wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's neither values or "people getting what they deserve". Nor is it "socialism". Resources are just a curse. When resources dominate an economy like in Venezuela or Nigeria or Iraq or Russia then the spoils get contested and that fighting inevitably leads to unstable governments, authoritarianism, corruption, economic stagnation, etc. etc. The only country to really escape the resource curse is Norway and that's lik…

>When resources dominate an economy like in Venezuela or Nigeria or Iraq or Russia then the spoils get contested and that fighting inevitably leads to unstable governments, authoritarianism, corruption, economic stagnation, etc. etc. Oh please. Last I checked the midwest and Austrialia were doing just fine. There are tons of commodity exporters that don't fit this pattern.

Are you serious? You picked two places with badly dysfunctional politics. Australia started out pretty good and has a long way to fall, but it is getting worse all the time - and most of its dysfunction is thanks to lobbying from resource extractors like Gina Rinehart.

Even so they have actual functioning non-resource economies unlike Nigeria and Venezuela and resource extraction can not dominate politics nearly as much.

Re: The Oil Thieves of Nigeria

#22

Post by dsfyu404ed » Fri, Feb 03, 2023, 12:52 PM UTC

pydry wrote: post #21

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When resources dominate an economy like in Venezuela or Nigeria or Iraq or Russia then the spoils get contested and that fighting inevitably leads to unstable governments, authoritarianism, corruption, economic stagnation, etc. etc. Oh please. Last I checked the midwest and Austrialia were doing just fine. There are tons of commodity exporters that don't fit this pattern.

Are you serious? You picked two places with badly dysfunctional politics. Australia started out pretty good and has a long way to fall, but it is getting worse all the time - and most of its dysfunction is thanks to lobbying from resource extractors like Gina Rinehart. Even so they have actual functioning non-resource economies unlike Nigeria and Venezuela and resource extraction can not dominate politics nearly as m…

>Are you serious? You picked two places with badly dysfunctional politics.

Are you serious? You're comparing Australia to Nigeria?

Hell, I almost included Russia(!!) in my comment because even they have quite functional and non-corrupt government relative to the area of the spectrum we're talking about here.

Just because some nation doesn't turn the screws on industries you don't like as hard as you want them to doesn't make them dysfunctional and corrupt.

Re: The Oil Thieves of Nigeria

#23

Post by pydry » Fri, Feb 03, 2023, 1:01 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #22

pydry wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you serious? You picked two places with badly dysfunctional politics. Australia started out pretty good and has a long way to fall, but it is getting worse all the time - and most of its dysfunction is thanks to lobbying from resource extractors like Gina Rinehart. Even so they have actual functioning non-resource economies unlike Nigeria and Venezuela and resource extraction can not dominate politics nearly as m…

>Are you serious? You picked two places with badly dysfunctional politics. Are you serious? You're comparing Australia to Nigeria? Hell, I almost included Russia(!!) in my comment because even they have quite functional and non-corrupt government relative to the area of the spectrum we're talking about here. Just because some nation doesn't turn the screws on industries you don't like as hard as you want them to does…

> You're comparing Australia to Nigeria?

Yes, because Australia has been developing a resource heavy economy with dysfunctional politics to match while Nigeria's has been completely resource dominated for a long time and been a basket case for most of its history because of it.

>Hell, I almost included Russia(!!) in my comment because even they have quite functional and non-corrupt government

A country more resource dominated than Australia and less resource dominated than Nigeria is more politically dysfunctional than Australia and less dysfunctional than Nigeria? Shocking (!!).

It's weird that I even have to utter this sentence but... Russia is not non-corrupt, by the way.

Re: The Oil Thieves of Nigeria

#24

Post by nine_k » Fri, Feb 03, 2023, 1:04 PM UTC

naijaboiler wrote: post #16

trabant00 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought a lot about this being from a country with severe corruption problems, although not nearly as bad as yours. I agree that in these situations "people largely get what they deserve" but I don't think the problem is that they vote for corrupt leaders. I think the problem is the people themselves, their culture and values are a lot more corrupt compared to a civilized country. You can observe corruption at ever…

i struggle to get on board with "corruption as a cultural value". What's deeper than these are usually more positive values, perhaps it's entepreneuralism, or often its just a sense of justice (communal resources belong to members of community). What you see is "corruption at every level" is just a systemic lubricant necessary for business to occur in the absence of rules and regulations that arefair, just, "followab…

Struggle not.

Imagine that you grow up in an environment where laboring is a way to sustain a so-so existence, and never anything more. The only way to make it big is to steal big. It's a life goal. If you get to a position if any power, you are expected to steal. If you do, others envy you. If you don't, others, including the regular folk, despise you, because they see you as an inept fool; were they in your position, they'd grab so much more! Also, your bosses tacitly expect that you grease their hand with some of the spoils from your position of some power; if you don't, you will lose your position, there are many more willing candidates.

The above happens naturally when people see the wealth of their community, or their whole society, as a loot box to grab, not as an orchard to grow. It's very easy to hold such views when much wealth comes from, well, grabbing natural resources like oil, ores, timber, etc. It may also be a convenient setup for those on the top, because it prevents people from trying to do something else than to get to the top the elites already control. No competition to the elites is going to form through cooperation and accumulation of wealth.

Once formed by greedy bandits, or instilled by conquerors (that is, greedy bandits from elsewhere), this sick system can continue as long as there are resources to extract and sell, boxes to loot. Of course even inside societies like those there are people who would prefer a different setup. Of course the change to a better society is not impossible. But it's a change that needs to alter ingrained values of many people, and topple many tiny power structures built on those which permeate the society. Such a change cannot be fast.

Re: The Oil Thieves of Nigeria

#25

Post by eloff » Fri, Feb 03, 2023, 1:05 PM UTC

trabant00 wrote: post #19

naijaboiler wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i struggle to get on board with "corruption as a cultural value". What's deeper than these are usually more positive values, perhaps it's entepreneuralism, or often its just a sense of justice (communal resources belong to members of community). What you see is "corruption at every level" is just a systemic lubricant necessary for business to occur in the absence of rules and regulations that arefair, just, "followab…

There is no lack of rules and regulations where I'm from - Eastern Europe. People are well aware they are breaking said rules. As for spreading wealth - far from it, everybody hoards as much as they can for themselves at the expense of others who are in many cases worse off. About cultural values, an anecdotal example: every time somebody gets prison time for stealing, fraud, embezzlement, etc, people comment things…

I met a Russian in the “banana export” business once. He espoused that exact same mentality: "4 years for X million euros? Would gladly take that deal".

Interpol caught up with him since and he’s living that deal now while his wife manages his assets. I wonder if she’s still his wife and I wonder if he still thinks it was worthwhile.

Re: The Oil Thieves of Nigeria

#26

Post by danbruc » Fri, Feb 03, 2023, 1:05 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #13

blitzar wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should the natural resources of a nation belong to anyone else? They should belong to the people. The state and the people are not the same thing in Australia and certainly not the same thing in Nigeria.

>>They should belong to the people. I mean, that sounds like a nice slogan that doesn't really mean anything. Can you give an example of what that would mean in practice?

Take all the profits from those resources and finance part of the country with it.

Re: The Oil Thieves of Nigeria

#27

Post by throwaway290 » Fri, Feb 03, 2023, 1:12 PM UTC

Read also "the looting machine" by Tom Burgis.

Re: The Oil Thieves of Nigeria

#28

Post by blitzar » Fri, Feb 03, 2023, 1:17 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #13

blitzar wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should the natural resources of a nation belong to anyone else? They should belong to the people. The state and the people are not the same thing in Australia and certainly not the same thing in Nigeria.

>>They should belong to the people. I mean, that sounds like a nice slogan that doesn't really mean anything. Can you give an example of what that would mean in practice?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Nor...

The Government Pension Fund Global, also known as the Oil Fund, was established in 1990 to invest the surplus revenues of the Norwegian petroleum sector. It has over US$1.19 trillion in assets,[1] and holds 1.4% of all of the world’s listed companies, making it among the world’s largest sovereign wealth funds.[2][3] In December 2021, it was worth about $250,000 per Norwegian citizen.

Simply gifting the finite stuff in the ground to a corporation to dig up and sell for nothing is an act of corruption at best and out and out treason at worst.

Also: these some of these https://www.arabianbusiness.com/industries/banking-finance/t...

Re: The Oil Thieves of Nigeria

#29

Post by nine_k » Fri, Feb 03, 2023, 1:21 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #13

blitzar wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should the natural resources of a nation belong to anyone else? They should belong to the people. The state and the people are not the same thing in Australia and certainly not the same thing in Nigeria.

>>They should belong to the people. I mean, that sounds like a nice slogan that doesn't really mean anything. Can you give an example of what that would mean in practice?

Ideally the state should be hired managers of the wealth of the people that is, the citizens of a country. Kind of like the board of a public corporation, effectively hired by shareholders.

But here comes the agency problem.

Then, the state is, equally importantly, a self-defence agency, which protect citizens from threats external (army) and internal (police). Hence the state controls the tools of violence.

The agency problem intensifies.

A carefully built system of checks and balances can sort of keep it at bay. Less carefully built systems turned into tyrannical regimes many, many times in recent history, all across the world.

Re: The Oil Thieves of Nigeria

#30

Post by dsfyu404ed » Fri, Feb 03, 2023, 1:23 PM UTC

pydry wrote: post #23

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Are you serious? You picked two places with badly dysfunctional politics. Are you serious? You're comparing Australia to Nigeria? Hell, I almost included Russia(!!) in my comment because even they have quite functional and non-corrupt government relative to the area of the spectrum we're talking about here. Just because some nation doesn't turn the screws on industries you don't like as hard as you want them to does…

> You're comparing Australia to Nigeria? Yes, because Australia has been developing a resource heavy economy with dysfunctional politics to match while Nigeria's has been completely resource dominated for a long time and been a basket case for most of its history because of it. >Hell, I almost included Russia(!!) in my comment because even they have quite functional and non-corrupt government A country more resource…

>It's weird that I even have to utter this sentence but... Russia is not non-corrupt, by the way.

Russia is corrupt. They aren't "owned by shell". They don't have organized crime siphoning off their pipelines. The gangsters they do have are working with the state at a high level and with the state's permission, not competing with it, paying off locals, etc. That's a whole different categorical level of corrupt than Nigeria and some other select parts of sub-saharan Africa. Trying to play corruption off like a binary is dishonest, screw off with that.

>Yes, because Australia has been developing a resource heavy economy with dysfunctional politics to match while Nigeria's has been completely resource dominated for a long time and been a basket case for most of its history because of it.

Australia is not of noteworthy levels of dysfunction compared to the rest of the western world. Hell, they're doing pretty good as far as former penal colonies go. They make political concessions for their breadwinner industries like everyone else does. You're just salty that mining is one of their key breadwinner industries.

Norway is another resource extraction nation and to portray them as "dysfunctional" would definitely be wrongthink 'round these parts. Canada is doing pretty good too.