Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

mullvad.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

451–460 of 534 posts

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#451

Post by int_19h »

browningstreet wrote: post #358
O__________O wrote: post #179

Strangest thing to me about the topic is that it’s obvious vast percentage of citizens within democracies wish they lived in an authoritarian country, yet choose to live in a democracy and use the liberties they’re provided to actively destabilize and destroy it. To me this is the largest issue, not a given topic that results from it. Yes, I am aware current authoritarian countries wage propaganda campaigns, but in m…

Most people voting/supporting these kinds of things believe there is a dastardly "other" that this will apply to more than it will apply to them. There are plenty of recent political endeavors where this was extremely obvious and loudly detailed and, yet... So much of the large-scale political nastiness these days isn't because a rising minority wants to enforce fair rules that everyone has to abide by together. They…

> They want rules that suppress the opportunities of someone else and are certain that the rules won't suppress them.

It should be noted that some of this sentiment comes from people who used the same techniques themselves to disrupt social arrangement, and who want to suppress them precisely because they know that it can work. Here's what one Soviet dissident had to say on the subject of human rights after USSR was gone:

"I always knew that only the decent people should have rights, and the indecent ones should not. ... Personally, I've had enough. Some time ago we [dissidents] and the USA have used this concept as a ram against the USSR and communists. This concept has served its purpose, and we should stop lying about human rights and promoting their defenders, lest we undermine ourselves."

It's rarely that blatant, but you can kinda sorta see similar sentiments in e.g. the explanations of why ACLU "evolves" on free speech.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#452

Post by int_19h »

mjburgess wrote: post #316
O__________O wrote: post #179

Strangest thing to me about the topic is that it’s obvious vast percentage of citizens within democracies wish they lived in an authoritarian country, yet choose to live in a democracy and use the liberties they’re provided to actively destabilize and destroy it. To me this is the largest issue, not a given topic that results from it. Yes, I am aware current authoritarian countries wage propaganda campaigns, but in m…

Nationalism is such an ubiquitous and powerful ideology, we don't realise that pretty much everyone today is an extreme nationalist. Before "nations" people didnt regard borders, states, etc. as they do today. "citizenship" of a "nation" is a relatively recent phenomenon. Most today think it's a good-and-fitting thing to defend "one's country". And this impulse is vastly more powerful than defending "democracy". Who…

> Most today think it's a good-and-fitting thing to defend "one's country"

Not in Europe. This poll was in 2014, when Russia first invaded Ukraine:

https://i.imgur.com/QnTeCwP.png

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#453

Post by int_19h »

danenania wrote: post #335
mjburgess wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nationalism is such an ubiquitous and powerful ideology, we don't realise that pretty much everyone today is an extreme nationalist. Before "nations" people didnt regard borders, states, etc. as they do today. "citizenship" of a "nation" is a relatively recent phenomenon. Most today think it's a good-and-fitting thing to defend "one's country". And this impulse is vastly more powerful than defending "democracy". Who…

I don't think Ukraine is a good example of your point, as apart from being a war between two nations, it is clearly also a war between democratic and authoritarian belief systems. That ideological divide is a large part of what sparked it in the first place--the whole thing began with mass pro-democracy demonstrations that ousted an authoritarian leader. My perception is that Ukrainians know what it's like to live un…

It gets less clear-cut as the war drags on. For example, a rather extreme law on mass media has been passed in Ukraine recently, with the justification that it is necessary to block Russian propaganda.

https://kyivindependent.com/news-feed/zelensky-signs-media-l...

I wouldn't be surprised if Ukraine ends up winning a Pyrrhic victory in a sense that it'll liberate all of its territory, but its internal politics will radicalize in the process, if not to the point of becoming outright non-democratic, then at least becoming more like Hungary or Poland: a democratic majority voting in fully support of a crackdown on all political, ideological, and cultural opposition.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#454

Post by zdragnar »

zirgs wrote: post #123
zdragnar wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should look into the so called ghost guns that show up. It hasn't been easier to get one, whether from assembling a kit to 3d printing to finding plans to build one from scrap.

Outside of the USA you can't simply order gun parts or ammunition without a licence. You'd have to manufacture everything yourself. That's a lot harder than simply 3D printing a lower receiver. Also that gun would be useless for any legal purpose. You'd be prosecuted even if you used it to defend yourself.

While true, the post I was responding to claimed you needed to be a gunsmith. That simply isn't true anymore.

> Also that gun would be useless for any legal purpose

Also irrelevant, given that the topic is illegal firearms.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#456

Post by b112 »

kragen wrote: post #277
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a compromised root ca allows an attacker who already has dns or ip control DNS or host/IP control is not a requirement at all: a Trusted CA is already trusted to sign a certificate for any hostname (with exceptions): that's what Trust means, and it also means that we trust them not to issue certificates for domains/hostnames without doing at-least Domain Validation - and we have schemes like Certificate Transparenc…

if i type https://gmail.com/ into my browser, it usually doesn't matter if you have successfully gotten comodo or actalis to issue you a fake certificate for gmail.com, because my browser doesn't try to connect to your malicious server; it tries to connect to google's actual gmail server, and so you don't receive my packets, and your fake certificate does you no good but, as i said, if you can feed me fake dns result…

because my browser doesn't try to connect to your malicious server

Unless a router is compromised along the route, which is a known thing, and part of why we use ssl everywhere now.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#457

Post by slickrick216 »

O__________O wrote: post #179

Strangest thing to me about the topic is that it’s obvious vast percentage of citizens within democracies wish they lived in an authoritarian country, yet choose to live in a democracy and use the liberties they’re provided to actively destabilize and destroy it. To me this is the largest issue, not a given topic that results from it. Yes, I am aware current authoritarian countries wage propaganda campaigns, but in m…

So close to a breakthrough but you lost it at the end.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#458

Post by int_19h »

mjburgess wrote: post #389
danenania wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Ukraine is a good example of your point, as apart from being a war between two nations, it is clearly also a war between democratic and authoritarian belief systems. That ideological divide is a large part of what sparked it in the first place--the whole thing began with mass pro-democracy demonstrations that ousted an authoritarian leader. My perception is that Ukrainians know what it's like to live un…

> I don't think you'd see anything close to this level of resistance if victory would mean an authoritarian Ukraine rather than a democratic Ukraine. Ah, well: I do. I think this has extraordinarily little to do with any "political system", of which Ukraine and Russia were both quite similar. One Nation invaded another, and in such moments people's nationalism is trigged. One defends' "one's own nation" regardless .…

Russians as a culture are plenty nationalist.

Russia as a polity is very confused on this. Officially, it's civic nationalist - you're supposed to think of yourself as a part of the "Russian nation" regardless of your ethnicity, but it's also defined broadly to allow for incomplete assimilation.

As a side note, it's more difficult to talk about this in (most) languages other than Russian because they don't have the distinction that Russian itself does. The word "русский" ("russky") usually means Russian in an ethnic sense, while the word "российский" ("rossiyskiy" - from the name of the country, which is Rossiya in Russian) means Russian in a sense of pertaining or belonging to the country. Thus you can compare and contrast "russky nationalism" (ethnic) and "rossiyskiy nationalism" (civic).

In practice, the government tolerates and sometimes encourages ethnic Russian nationalism so long as it does not manifest as open political opposition.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#459

Post by slickrick216 »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #20

As a pro-EU citizen I feel more and more inclined to agree on some of the Brexit rhetoric. Commissioners have shown multiple times that they are too permeable to lobbying, too willing to water down tough environmental regulation, and too keen on 'security' surveillance. So far the EU parliament members have balanced the act with some sanity. But the power and lack of transparency of the EC both with regards to lobbyi…

It isn’t a democratic system. It’s clearly been infiltrated by both lobbyists as you say but also foreign powers. Further integration should be halted in my opinion until the undemocratic elements are dissolved and replaced with ethical moral means of representation if that doesn’t happen then we are at an impasse for which I see no future in this system. Personally I will not donate the labor my life to it. Everyone is free (for now) to do what they wish. Nothing is perfect but society should benefit those who benefit society not oligarchs and tyrants.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#460

Post by O__________O »

int_19h wrote: post #451
browningstreet wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people voting/supporting these kinds of things believe there is a dastardly "other" that this will apply to more than it will apply to them. There are plenty of recent political endeavors where this was extremely obvious and loudly detailed and, yet... So much of the large-scale political nastiness these days isn't because a rising minority wants to enforce fair rules that everyone has to abide by together. They…

> They want rules that suppress the opportunities of someone else and are certain that the rules won't suppress them. It should be noted that some of this sentiment comes from people who used the same techniques themselves to disrupt social arrangement, and who want to suppress them precisely because they know that it can work . Here's what one Soviet dissident had to say on the subject of human rights after USSR was…

Agree, it’s very common pattern, one that in part is caused by power grabs, but also by people suddenly realizing they now the ones in control and if they fail, they’re next on the chopping blocks.

Would be curious about the evolution on ACLU on free speech you referenced. Does this article cover your understanding, or is it something else?

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html

Post reply on HN