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Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

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Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#121

Post by monkeynotes »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #46
dijit wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU Parliament has nothing to do with this proposal. It's proposed by the EU Commission, and such things have been struck down by the Parliament before. Also: Britain hardly has any leg to stand on regarding privacy (which is something the EU usually has a focus on[0]). Did you forget the Snoopers Charter[1]? That isn't a proposal. That's law. [0]: https://gdpr.eu [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigatory_Power…

I am making the point that the parliament votes, and _rejects_ proposals that overreach. My point is not Britain as an example, but that one of the Brexit rhetoric points was the rah rah 'unelected officials'. Arguably we both know that EC comissioners are appointed by democratic governments but we see multiple times how permeable EC commisioners are: 1. Surveillance proposals such as posted in this thread 2. Net Neu…

* 'unelected officials'

The UK has had 4 unelected PMs since 1990, and dozens before that.

And as pointed out before, the UK is ahead of the EU in terms of surveillance. You even have to opt in with your ISP to watch porn.

The UK has hundreds of thousands of government CCTV cameras and they can comprehensively track your movements through the entire country.

The Brexit rhetoric was more about nationalism than anything else, it was marketed as "we don't want the EU telling us what to do", but that just played heavily into nationalism.

All that aside, if you think any major political system in the west, or indeed globally is safe from lobbying and major corruption you are wrong. Corporate and industrial influence is rife throughout, IMO. When was the last time you saw any significant legislation come through to give working-middle class any kind of help or upward mobility?

I am wandering from your initial point, but I am angry and frustrated with our rapid decline. We trashed our economies over COVID and we're now splooging billions of dollars into an un-winnable proxy war which escalates monthly.

All of this shit is done in the same vein as this surveillance proposal "think of the children", I mean how could you not think of the children?? How could you not think of your neighbour? How could you not think of your fellow Europeans? It's all built to socially shame and coerce us into terrible policy that ultimately puts us in the hole unable to get out.

Anyways, yes I have an axe to grind and probably have some stuff wrong here, but I am frustrated with my economic decline. It feels like the middle class is constantly being drained for the benefit of oligarch, war mongering liars.

Apologies for a reactionary derail, it's cathartic at least. Please feel free to tell me how I am wrong, I genuinely want to be corrected because I feel depressed with my perspective.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#122

Post by starkd »

mach1ne wrote: post #53
ethbr0 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We probably all know that they will show reasons [...], whereas the real motivation is to control people's freedom of speech and communication even though they will 100% deny it. I don't think this is how it works, absent an already existent police state. In democracies, it really is pushed for {good reasons}. Once built, it's then used by law enforcement, because it exists and gets the job done. Pretending there's…

Even though something has a benevolent rationalization, it doesn’t mean the true motives are benevolent. It doesn’t need any New World Order conspiracy either. People in ruling positions often enjoy power, and they may be clueless as to how this desire is affecting their decisionmaking.

Not necessarily an intentional conspiracy, but it can just be that of a herd mentality. As a species, we are conditioned to follow the herd, to go along to get alone. Those that do not follow tend to get trampled, their concerns not even listened to.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#123

Post by zirgs »

zdragnar wrote: post #61
wizzwizz4 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you're a gunsmith, it's not really comparable. Anyone with a sufficiently-powerful desk calculator can use illegal encryption, but not everyone can procure an illegal firearm.

You should look into the so called ghost guns that show up. It hasn't been easier to get one, whether from assembling a kit to 3d printing to finding plans to build one from scrap.

Outside of the USA you can't simply order gun parts or ammunition without a licence. You'd have to manufacture everything yourself. That's a lot harder than simply 3D printing a lower receiver.

Also that gun would be useless for any legal purpose. You'd be prosecuted even if you used it to defend yourself.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#124

Post by zx85wes »

maxehmookau wrote: post #8
ecmascript wrote: post #3

This is really, really scary and what scares me even more is these proposals just seems to keep coming and in time some of them will probably make their way into law. Used to be for EU but if any regulation like this goes through, I will immedietly vote for any politician willing to exit the EU. Honestly, I am kind of for leaving the EU anyway since I don't like the large centralized power it has become. There is lit…

EU commissioners propose laws, they don't vote for them. The EU parliament will probably reject this. As a brit, let me tell you that leaving the EU will not solve this problem. Your local politicians will just do that anyway.

I wouldn't be so sure... https://www.euractiv.com/section/data-protection/news/new-eu...

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#125

Post by brookst »

ethbr0 wrote: post #88
brookst wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m always skeptical of phrases like “true motives”. Sometimes people can do the wrong thing for the right reasons, or totally amorally. There doesn’t have to be a secret agenda. Framing things in terms of shadowy cabals that hide their secret motivations weakens the argument and reduces odds of successful resistance to these programs by misunderstanding the opposition.

Better said than me. There are different approaches to changing someone's mind if they're misunderstanding something, versus if they're straight-up lying to you. The fact that there exist highly public straight-up lying politicians doesn't mean the mass of politicians are liars. Most are trying to do a decent thing, with the understanding they have. Casting one's democratic agents as "other" corrodes democracy, decre…

Yes, and it’s frustrating to see people whose policy positions I generally agree with (less surveillance, please) resort to this kind of rhetoric. People who disagree are not only wrong, and not only intentional wrongdoers, but they have secret motives even they themselves don’t know?

These people have obviously never tried to get four people to agree on what movie to see.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#126

Post by gjsman-1000 »

ethbr0 wrote: post #41
can16358p wrote: post #10

We certainly need decentralized systems that cannot be controlled by EU, US, or any government/entity. Privacy is a human right. We probably all know that they will show reasons like "fighting terrorism", "preventing national threats" or "hunting down child pornography" etc, whereas the real motivation is to control people's freedom of speech and communication even though they will 100% deny it. Anyone who is really…

> We probably all know that they will show reasons [...], whereas the real motivation is to control people's freedom of speech and communication even though they will 100% deny it. I don't think this is how it works, absent an already existent police state. In democracies, it really is pushed for {good reasons}. Once built, it's then used by law enforcement, because it exists and gets the job done. Pretending there's…

> Pretending there's a sinister, organized New World Order (aka "them") with decades-long plans to restrict freedom is fantasy, and doesn't help us target the actual problem.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and I don't really believe too much in the existence of such a group, but I can argue this is really bad logic.

A. Do you think such a group would be public with their ambitions? Such a group would doubtless deny their own existence. Arguing that they do, or do not exist, can only be based on observation and opinion, because it is not falsifiable.

B. Secret societies do exist, and there are some that still exist to this day that had major political power previously. The Freemasons, for example, were pretty influential in the French revolution on both sides, and counted leaders like Napoleon, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, Winston Churchill, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Paul Revere, and so on among their members. We know that nine freemasons, at a minimum, signed the US Constitution. (Then, fun fact, they put "Novus ordo seclorum" on the great seal of the US.)

C. And even if there weren't powerful secret societies historically (which is doubtful), we currently live in a very globalized world with much easier ability to meet and privately message, so there's always a first. Saying that it never happened, therefore it can't happen, is always misguided.

D. The World Economic Forum literally called for everyone to build a New World Order in 2018. With that exact terminology. It's still on their website. I would argue that makes them partially culpable for the conspiracies. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/12/we-must-work-together...

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#127

Post by menaerus »

xorry wrote: post #69

> every single line that you write in all kinds of messaging apps (including encrypted services), your e-mails — yes, all of this — can be filtered out ... how exactly will this work?

Network equipment of our ISPs already have this type of surveillance software. And there are number of examples where we have seen that it is being used by the government intel with success, and regardless of the communication chain being encrypted or not.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#129

Post by bartislartfast »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #86
oauea wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't call encryption illegal. That's letting them shape the narrative.

Isn't the whole point that they're trying to make mathematics illegal? To my knowledge, encryption is currently legal. To those who say "it's impossible to make encryption illegal": there have been sillier laws. George Orwell once imagined a society where 2+2=5 was a law. While they usually do, laws don't have to make sense.

My favourite example in the world of "silly" laws - Saudi Arabia invests massive money in scientific research, and still executes people for Sorcery and Witchcraft

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#130

Post by mderazon »

xorry wrote: post #69

> every single line that you write in all kinds of messaging apps (including encrypted services), your e-mails — yes, all of this — can be filtered out ... how exactly will this work?

There's no shortage of ways. For example mandate preinstalling a spyware on every mobile device sold
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