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Bay 12 Games has made $7M from the Steam release of Dwarf Fortress

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Re: Bay 12 Games has made $7M from the Steam release of Dwarf Fortress

#301
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, are there tax options (specifically, retroactive ones) for this situation? As near as I know: (1) they formed a company at some point in the past (S-corp?), (2) they did constant work per year, (3) they had some donations per year, (4) they suddenly had a large amount of revenue in 2022 I'm guessing they didn't fully account for their time/expenses in prior years. If they didn't, are there options t…

IANAA, but I pay one every year. S-Corp is not an efficient entity type for a windfall like this. It is a pass through entity, and cannot retain earnings year over year, for that you need a C-Corp. That said, had they already had a C-Corp set up, then this income would be taxed at 21%, so after Steam fees and taxes, they would be sitting on around $3.3M (not counting publisher fees and any expenses that might arise).…

It's a good thing you pay an accountant...

What you suggest is not a hack of the tax code. Close corporations are generally required to pay reasonable salaries to their owners (and more importantly, payroll taxes on those salaries) if the corporation's revenue is derived from the labor of its owners. Not doing this is the #1 reason that close corporations, and their owners get penalized by the IRS. From personal experience being brought in to put out these fires, the IRS might be willing to negotiate the size of the penalty, but penalties will be owed, as will back taxes on the tax deemed due, as well as interest on those back taxes. Generally, these close corporation owners will spend more on penalties and interest for a single tax year than they would save in 5 years from this scheme, and that doesn't include legal fees they paid for the audit.

There is no bright-line rule for what a "reasonable" salary is. For low six-figure amounts, the SS contribution threshold is usually considered a safe amount with the rest paid as a dividend, but for seven-figure amounts, different considerations apply. Indeed, at larger amounts, the IRS is actually opposed to close corporations using inflated salaries to reduce corporate income taxes (because salaries are deductible to the corporation but dividends are not).

So: owners would have paid their progressive rate on the XXXk of income received as salary (which is deductible to the corporation), at a likely 22-37% marginal rate, plus up to 12% state income tax rate, for a total of up to 49% including state taxes. The remaining income received as a dividend would be subject to a corporate tax rate of 21%, plus a personal tax rate of 20% (15% on the portion of the dividend income, if any, below the QD 20% rate threshold, which depends on how much of their income they chose to allocate as salary), plus 3.8% NIIT, or a 44.8% rate of federal tax before state taxes on the corporation and the owner are taken into account. Or in other words, usually worse than just taking all of the profits as a salary.

Re: Bay 12 Games has made $7M from the Steam release of Dwarf Fortress

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sucks that their tax burden is going to be higher on account of making all this money in a single year, putting almost all of it in the highest brackets. Unless they did some clever accounting tricks throughout the 20 years to prepare for this situation, which I highly doubt they did. I don't know where he lives, but in California it could easily add up to close to 50% since he's "rich".

As far as I know, they live in Washington state. Which should help with the tax on income at least a little bit, given the state has no income tax. Still, yeah, having the entire amount being dropped on them in a single year will probably have pretty major federal income tax consequences. Hopefully, they will figure it out, and the sales of Dwarf Fortress on steam won't dwindle. I find that it is a pretty good timing…

i'd thought the standard way would be to borrow heavily and invest in other financial assets. Then the interest payment would be paid out pre-tax, thus reducing your tax liabilities down to a manageable level.

The financial assets will return money in the future, but much more slowly, and get preferential tax treatment compared to direct income (such as long term capital gains tax discounts).

When you have $7mil in cash (and expectation of more in the future), there would be options not available to lower net worth people i suppose?

Re: Bay 12 Games has made $7M from the Steam release of Dwarf Fortress

#303
post #270

Why did they wait so long to charge for the game? (I've never played it, so forgive my ignorance)

This is a new version of the game with a GUI on steam. previously it was text only, and not very accessible.

What about a text-only game, prevented them from charging for it?

Re: Bay 12 Games has made $7M from the Steam release of Dwarf Fortress

#306
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tax code is structured the way it is for a reason. It’s not there to be exploited. It’s there to be followed. DF is a business and labor of love for the two owners. One which generates revenue and is clearly above board. There is nothing wrong with taking dividends as the business becomes more valuable rather than increasing salary. And it’s not some mega tax loophole for the wealthy. By any measure these two are…

You can see my other reply above if you care. But I do take issue with this >By any measure these two aren’t wealthy That's objectively so wrong. They are basically set for life on money or will be before too long with more sales rolling in over time. The vast majority of people will never see anywhere near that amount of money.. yet we don't want to call it wealthy. Ludicrous.

They don't have a lump 7MM sitting around and are most certainly not set for life. Someone else did the math and it comes out to 100k per person per year after taxes and fees. Do you want to reassess?

Re: Bay 12 Games has made $7M from the Steam release of Dwarf Fortress

#307

And? - Cherry games with Hollow Knight have made more money and it's just a team of three people.

And Minecraft blows all of them out of the water. That's not the point here. The point is that Dwarf Fortress has been a labor of love for two decades and it's nice to see these guys get some solid financial security for all that hard work.

Re: Bay 12 Games has made $7M from the Steam release of Dwarf Fortress

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's relevant to the Bible, or Shakespeare, or the MCU, because those works' authors have authority in a way the Brothers Grimm do not have authority over folklore.

Bible does not have authority. It simply has a large following. No one has authority over the content in the bible. For the MCU, yes, by law Disney has authority over the MCU.

There are multiple competing authorities, but they are absolutely authorities, and their versions of individual texts are extremely close to each other.

Most notably, for the actual list of books there's the Catholic Church for the Catholic canon; the Masoretes for Judaism; Synods for the Greek Orthodox canon; and a broad consensus in the Protestant community.

For the texts themselves, the Septuagint and the Masoretic text are the only game in town for the Hebrew Bible, while the Greek texts of the New Testament were very firmly set in stone by the Imperial Roman Church (as central of an authority as it gets).

Note that some of these authorities (the Masoretes, the Imperial Roman Church) do not exist anymore. THat just means that canon is unchangeable, it still exists.

Re: Bay 12 Games has made $7M from the Steam release of Dwarf Fortress

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minecraft released in 2009 with a price of $13 a copy. How'd that work out for them? I am a bit older as a gamer so to hear that "2006 the market was small" is crazy to me! I grew up playing MUDs and believe me, the market for text games in 2006 was a lot bigger than it is today! From my perspective, monetizing the kids from the 80s/90s who loved text games with the best text game of all time as they turn 20s and 30s…

I get your argument about Bay12 potentially making more money had they commercialized earlier, but I think the comparison with Minecraft isn't so clean. DF is orders of magnitude less approachable than Minecraft, so there is not even a remote possibility of generating any kind of mass appeal to gamers.

Lack of accessibility is a design defect, one which I assume would be resolved as they grew and invested.

Notch didn't make all the right calls either. Letting other people have some control is almost always a good thing.

Re: Bay 12 Games has made $7M from the Steam release of Dwarf Fortress

#310
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole idea of caring about "canon" is fundamentally bollocks anyway when it comes to stories

Reference?

I made it up. It's an opinion

The latest commit where the master branch finds itself in isn't any more "true" or genuine than the first commit in history, nor the commits on a fork, nor the commit on branch-1, nor the commit on branch-2

If it's all fiction anyway there is no truth out there for the map to be compared against. All permutations are real, all maps are the territory

I do find it amusing, however, that depending on context people consider the first commit in history to be canon, while on other cases they prefer the newest commit approved by the Authority™

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