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Bay 12 Games has made $7M from the Steam release of Dwarf Fortress

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Re: Bay 12 Games has made $7M from the Steam release of Dwarf Fortress

#111

Post by ethbr0 »

christkv wrote: post #89
program_whiz wrote: post #65

Glad to see this, because they have worked long and hard on this game. For the optimistic, divide ~$4m (post-tax) by team of 2 for ~20 years (they started work in 2002). They've made some money in the meantime obviously, but seeing the final profit doesn't accurately capture the overall investment. Just in case you were thinking of quitting your day job to become an overnight millionaire making indie games.

If they are smart the money will be taken out as dividend and thus only pay capital gains tax.

Out of curiosity, are there tax options (specifically, retroactive ones) for this situation?

As near as I know: (1) they formed a company at some point in the past (S-corp?), (2) they did constant work per year, (3) they had some donations per year, (4) they suddenly had a large amount of revenue in 2022

I'm guessing they didn't fully account for their time/expenses in prior years.

If they didn't, are there options to go back and amend previous returns in amounts that would be meaningful? (Assuming they have proof, etc.)

Re: Bay 12 Games has made $7M from the Steam release of Dwarf Fortress

#112

Post by Mengkudulangsat »

bovermyer wrote: post #29
Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #11

Please incorporate ChatGPT into this game! Imagine the storylines!

I disagree vehemently and violently with this suggestion. Dwarf Fortress's charm results from human-crafted procedures interacting in unexpected and fascinating ways. If ChatGPT (or other AI bullshit generators) were used instead, it would change the experience entirely.

You gotta admit DFs name / description generation is just gobbledygook most of the time. Tastefully applied, AI bullshit generators will do wonders to readability.

Re: Bay 12 Games has made $7M from the Steam release of Dwarf Fortress

#113

Post by mrpopo »

alpaca128 wrote: post #85
MagicMoonlight wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They made 7m in personal income in one month, how would that not be normal

People are just used to wealthy people gaming the tax system to a point it's shocking when someone actually pays them.

With this kind of money, you can absolutely get someone to do all the work you need to make your tax mostly disappear. Heck, they probably find your number and call you directly, you would only have to say "Yes, I want to save a couple million dollars".

I'm not saying it's good, but at the moment it's just so easy, risk-free and completely legal.

Re: Bay 12 Games has made $7M from the Steam release of Dwarf Fortress

#114

Post by program_whiz »

criley2 wrote: post #74
program_whiz wrote: post #65

Glad to see this, because they have worked long and hard on this game. For the optimistic, divide ~$4m (post-tax) by team of 2 for ~20 years (they started work in 2002). They've made some money in the meantime obviously, but seeing the final profit doesn't accurately capture the overall investment. Just in case you were thinking of quitting your day job to become an overnight millionaire making indie games.

This doesn't really make sense. They were a donations-run "charity" shop making a free game. They only decided to put it on Steam so they could fund a retirement as well as a future for the game. For any indie devs out there: don't give your game away for free for 18 years if you want to make money. That's really the lesson here. Had DF monetized in 2006 instead of going free, and played the industry game as others d…

The major lesson is "don't make indie games if you want to make money". There are 34 games released per day on steam. Most will have revenue under $1000 (and probably most will have revenue below $100).

Unless you have a talented team, marketing plan, and lots of capital you can burn for a gamble; or are willing to just do it for fun for years and don't care if it succeeds -- don't quit your job to make indie games. Otherwise you're playing Russian roulette. For every hollow knight, Dwarf Fortress, Celeste, there are 1000s of other titles you've never heard of.

Re: Bay 12 Games has made $7M from the Steam release of Dwarf Fortress

#115

Post by ineedasername »

criley2 wrote: post #74
program_whiz wrote: post #65

Glad to see this, because they have worked long and hard on this game. For the optimistic, divide ~$4m (post-tax) by team of 2 for ~20 years (they started work in 2002). They've made some money in the meantime obviously, but seeing the final profit doesn't accurately capture the overall investment. Just in case you were thinking of quitting your day job to become an overnight millionaire making indie games.

This doesn't really make sense. They were a donations-run "charity" shop making a free game. They only decided to put it on Steam so they could fund a retirement as well as a future for the game. For any indie devs out there: don't give your game away for free for 18 years if you want to make money. That's really the lesson here. Had DF monetized in 2006 instead of going free, and played the industry game as others d…

2006 was pre-Minecraft territory. Monetizing DF at that point in time would have been highly unlikely.

Also the game wasn’t built yet. Maybe they could have monetized earlier than this, but what does it matter? Maybe trying to monetized earlier would have killed the project or resulted in a game very different from today. Either way it doesn’t matter: there are different paths to success and not every one of them is an option for every game. DF found one though, and that’s what matters.

Re: Bay 12 Games has made $7M from the Steam release of Dwarf Fortress

#116

Post by account42 »

HEmanZ wrote: post #107
paulluuk wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> divide ~$4m (post-tax) by team of 2 for ~20 years So about $100k per year, per person (after taxes) I know that this is nothing out in Silicon Valley, but for reference, the median income in the US is $19k (net) per year, and about $15k (net) per year in Europe (if you include eastern Europe). I can't tell from your comment whether you feel 100k is high (hence the "optimistic") or low (hence the warning at the end)…

So much depends on how you measure it. But median individual income in the US is quite a bit higher than 19k no matter how you measure it. Real, adjusted, individual including non working and part-time population above 15yo: $38k/yr Including only full-time workers: $57k Median household income: $71k The US has enough problems, no need to make up much smaller income numbers than the reality. https://fred.stlouisfed.o…

Pretty sure GP is talking about net income.

Re: Bay 12 Games has made $7M from the Steam release of Dwarf Fortress

#117

Post by tverbeure »

gizmo wrote: post #101
christkv wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they are smart the money will be taken out as dividend and thus only pay capital gains tax.

They are smart which is why they are spending their lives working on something they love instead of worrying about tax optimization nonsense.

There’s a major contradiction in here.

I’m sure you’ll agree that it’d be mindblowingly dumb to not set some kind of company for a bunch of reasons? (Eg limited liability)

And that you best leave accounting and tax filings to professionals so that you can spend your precious time on something you love instead?

OP’s suggestion automatically flows from that…

Re: Bay 12 Games has made $7M from the Steam release of Dwarf Fortress

#118

Post by FeepingCreature »

mijoharas wrote: post #56
Archelaos wrote: post #28

> The fairytale ending is reality, but you didn’t kiss the toad. Some philological pedantery: In the canonical Brothers Grimm version of The Frog Prince, the frog does not turn into a prince when kissed but when smashed against a wall.

Sounds like polymorph from DND to me. > The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Polymorph#content [Edit] trimmed quote

But as he fell, he was changed from a frog into a handsome prince, who then had to make death saving throws for a few rounds but luckily the princess had Lay On Hands, and so they lived happily ever after.

Re: Bay 12 Games has made $7M from the Steam release of Dwarf Fortress

#119

Post by ironSkillet »

criley2 wrote: post #108
rob74 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OTOH, if they would have asked money for it from the beginning, it may never have gotten as far as it did. The market for a commercial game with text graphics was pretty small even back in 2006...

Minecraft released in 2009 with a price of $13 a copy. How'd that work out for them? I am a bit older as a gamer so to hear that "2006 the market was small" is crazy to me! I grew up playing MUDs and believe me, the market for text games in 2006 was a lot bigger than it is today! From my perspective, monetizing the kids from the 80s/90s who loved text games with the best text game of all time as they turn 20s and 30s…

I get your argument about Bay12 potentially making more money had they commercialized earlier, but I think the comparison with Minecraft isn't so clean. DF is orders of magnitude less approachable than Minecraft, so there is not even a remote possibility of generating any kind of mass appeal to gamers.
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