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The unequal treatment of demographic groups by ChatGPT/OpenAI content moderation

davidrozado.substack.com

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Re: The unequal treatment of demographic groups by ChatGPT/OpenAI content moderation

#431

Post by Llamamoe »

fleddr wrote: post #355

This is what you get in our post-truth world that is now a performative acceptable truth world. It's basically cherry picking opinions, perceptions and half-truths that are favorable to an ideological agenda, and dismissing anything else. Where the dismissing part gets increasingly aggressive. It doesn't have to make sense, be logical or consistent. It's not a truth struggle, it's a power struggle. It's tumblr and 4c…

Honestly, this is probably just representative of the bias in what people producing the training data came up with when asked to produce or flag hateful speech, or some other analogous training bias rather than a purposeful act.

Re: The unequal treatment of demographic groups by ChatGPT/OpenAI content moderation

#432

Post by barbazoo »

tomp wrote: post #311

> men have a bigger tendency for violent behavior than women Why is this considered good / normal / expected, but s/men/blacks/g and s/women/whites/g (or asians, or muslims/christians) and it's discriminatory? (Statistically, both statements are justified. Morally, neither is, as we should treat people as individuals, not as members of X group.)

> Why is this considered good / normal / expected, but s/men/blacks/g and s/women/whites/g (or asians, or muslims/christians) and it's discriminatory? (Statistically, both statements are justified.

Are BOTH statistically justified in ways that control for other, socioeconomic factors and such?

Re: The unequal treatment of demographic groups by ChatGPT/OpenAI content moderation

#433

Post by tomp »

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote: post #413
735892568 wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same thing applies when the statement is applied to men or any of the other demographic groups that it's applied to from time to time.

> men have a bigger tendency for violent behavior than women > black people have a bigger tendency for violent behavior than white people It seems way easier to justify that first statement. Are there physiological differences between a black man and a white man that are as significant as the differences between testosterone and estrogen?

The causal relationship between testosterone and violence in humans is weak and disputed.

Should be as much of a reason to doubt it and brand such statements as bigotry as “blacks are more violent”, no?

Re: The unequal treatment of demographic groups by ChatGPT/OpenAI content moderation

#434

Post by dmix »

jxramos wrote: post #394
mshake2 wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whites are 60% of the population though, so they're being arrested in proportion with their representation. They also do not separate white-latino and white-non-latino, so the colloquial "white" is being lumped in with another ethnicity. Also, in 2019, blacks were just under 13% of the population, yet they are represented 2x-4x over in virtually ever crime category in that table. So it is true and you're distorting t…

the thing that's always confused me is why would this category of white lumping together latino even be a thing in the first place? Just seems like a really harebrained idea. That association always confuses many hispanics I know during each census. Was there a rationale for this lumping? I never understood it, just seemed to beg for fuzzy/blurred/confusing metrics.

Maybe it's something that made sense at some point in the past and now it's too difficult to change because it will mess up historical analysis/trends? Not to mention motives will immediately be questioned by anyone who tries to fix it and who really wants to die on that hill in the current political climate?

South Asian vs East asian is another group that often gets lumped together in demographic statistics as 'Asian'. Despite significant differences in geography/race/culture/etc.

Regardless, I'd also be curious to hear the real rational for the Latino one

Re: The unequal treatment of demographic groups by ChatGPT/OpenAI content moderation

#435

Post by michaelt »

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #365
tomp wrote: post #311

> men have a bigger tendency for violent behavior than women Why is this considered good / normal / expected, but s/men/blacks/g and s/women/whites/g (or asians, or muslims/christians) and it's discriminatory? (Statistically, both statements are justified. Morally, neither is, as we should treat people as individuals, not as members of X group.)

These statistics you're referring to, how comparable are the relative differences? Do they show that men are 4 times more violent than women and black people are 1.1 more violent than white people, for example? What are these figures?

Presumably prison/jail population statistics - there are certainly more males imprisoned for violent crimes than women, it's like a 10:1 ratio.

Of course, the likes of Brock Turner and Prince Andrew demonstrate that some demographic groups are relatively less punished or relatively more able to avoid punishment, so the prison population surely doesn't directly measure inherent tendencies.

Re: The unequal treatment of demographic groups by ChatGPT/OpenAI content moderation

#436

Post by deepspace »

slg wrote: post #367
whatshisface wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't completely settle the issue because Democrats and Republicans use different words and styles of phrase in their polemics.

Exactly. Take the "Democrat Party" versus the "Democratic Party". They both look neutral, but a language model will code the former as more of an insult. This is because it correlates with insults because it resembles language more often used by conservative who are more likely to insult Democrats than liberals are. Liberals will put in more effort to avoid language that looks like hate speech because they are more c…

Yes, that one leapt out at me in the comparison between 'Democrat voter' and 'Republican voter'. The term 'Democrat' is almost always used as a slur, while 'Republican' is just the mainstream term.

Re: The unequal treatment of demographic groups by ChatGPT/OpenAI content moderation

#437

Post by fleddr »

agar wrote: post #156

There is a fundamental question this article (and most debate) overlooks: what is the objective of the content moderation? Is it to avoid all hate in an equal way? Or is it to reduce potential harm? If the latter (which I would argue is the case, primarily to avoid legal liability), then the results should be mapped against statistics representing actual violence against certain groups. Is there more harm against wom…

None of that will work because the liability/ideological pressure doesn't care about truth. It cares about subjective acceptable speech.

Simple example: men are far more often the victim of violence compared to women. So the age old idea that women should be afraid to go out at night may be true, it is even more true for men.

By your logic, this would afford more hate towards women, and less hate against men.

This truth nor the outcome isn't acceptable as it doesn't fit the narrative. It would be rejected, diluted, there's a 100 tactics to undermine truth if you approach it in bad faith.

Further, your approach of differentiation is inherently racist, sexist, etc or can be perceived as such. Giving special protections to identities also tends to humiliate them as you signal that they are "less". Inferior. Can't make it on their own.

Or, the exact opposite: it can be weaponized. Collecting the labels like pokemons.

Re: The unequal treatment of demographic groups by ChatGPT/OpenAI content moderation

#438

Post by [deleted] »

barbazoo wrote: post #432
tomp wrote: post #311

> men have a bigger tendency for violent behavior than women Why is this considered good / normal / expected, but s/men/blacks/g and s/women/whites/g (or asians, or muslims/christians) and it's discriminatory? (Statistically, both statements are justified. Morally, neither is, as we should treat people as individuals, not as members of X group.)

> Why is this considered good / normal / expected, but s/men/blacks/g and s/women/whites/g (or asians, or muslims/christians) and it's discriminatory? (Statistically, both statements are justified. Are BOTH statistically justified in ways that control for other, socioeconomic factors and such?

[deleted]

Re: The unequal treatment of demographic groups by ChatGPT/OpenAI content moderation

#439

Post by Llamamoe »

belorn wrote: post #408
tomp wrote: post #311

> men have a bigger tendency for violent behavior than women Why is this considered good / normal / expected, but s/men/blacks/g and s/women/whites/g (or asians, or muslims/christians) and it's discriminatory? (Statistically, both statements are justified. Morally, neither is, as we should treat people as individuals, not as members of X group.)

It is culture. Actually science on violence and aggression tend to show a bit different picture, and also why such statistics is of such a low value. Good research tend to explore the null hypothesis and alternative explanation for statistical results. A common used data point is that men commit most violent crimes. Using the same data from Sweden one can also say that today Muslim are 20 times more likely per person…

One claim I've seen is that men commit more violent crime because it's more common for a man to be physically stronger than another person, while the rates of non-physial violence are much closer across gender boundaries.

Re: The unequal treatment of demographic groups by ChatGPT/OpenAI content moderation

#440

Post by oauea »

slg wrote: post #398
oauea wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The latter has historically been perceived as more respectful Maybe if you only consider Americans. But rest assured, many black people do not want to be called African or American. Because they are neither.

Yes, I agree. I thought the double qualifiers of "historically" and "perceived" would indicate that I don't personally agree with the notion, but American society at large has agreed with that for most of the last 50 or so years.

My point is that it's perceived that way within America. But the internet is larger than just America. And presumably/hopefully ChatGPT gobbled up all kinds of data originating from other countries.
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