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Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

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Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#41

Post by Rayhem »

bentt wrote: post #35

This just in - competitive people in competitive fields compete. The only way to fix this is to make rules about how hard anyone is allowed to work. By definition this is a denial of freedom and stifles progress. The real solution for an individual is to be satsfied with less. Just don’t expect that of anyone else lest you tread on the thin ice of communim, which is ironic considering the birthplace of the author.

> By definition this ... stifles progress.

This conclusion does not at all follow from the premise. The myth that more competition means you get a better result absolutely does not hold and needs to die. There's a fundamental equilibrium shift when you spend more resources competing than you do on progressing.

Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#42

Post by noorkersz »

photochemsyn wrote: post #28
noorkersz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think about this as another of those "industries" in which a lot people want to get into. Similar to art, animation, acting, screen writing, recording artist music; I suppose any creative industries will be like this. All these 'industries' become exploitative (possibly capitalism has something to do with how this happens. but let's stay on topic) So then, I consider this pattern of exploitation -- of "put up with…

Academic institutions are loaded up with people who are skilled at political manipulation and bureaucratic infighting, and who often have little real interest in their supposed field of research. For these types it's basically a game of getting in with the reviewers of grant proposals, rubbing elbows at scientific conferences, hiring technicians and postdocs and maybe some pHD students to generate a steady stream of…

I formed this opinion, that in academic institutions there exist two types of persons:

bureaucratic types, who play politics and so on, like the ones you describe.

and the ones that actually know the content and love their fields of study.

my opinion is that institutions need both types. But what do I know... I am going to finish my masters (or maybe not) and get out of academia.

Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#43

Post by kneebonian »

cma wrote: post #33
thwayunion wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why will academic R&D begin falling below the rate of inflation? Debt-to-GDP ratios and the cost of servicing existing debt together mean that there are difficult budgeting decisions on the horizon for many western governments. Academic R&D just doesn't have the constituency needed to save it from cuts. I will be a bit astounded if NSF/NIH don't take nominal cuts during the debt ceiling negotiations, and they certa…

> Debt-to-GDP ratios and the cost of servicing existing debt together mean that there are difficult budgeting decisions on the horizon for many western governments. Academic R&D just doesn't have the constituency needed to save it from cuts. Wouldn't this be a plausible story immediately post-WWII?

> Wouldn't this be a plausible story immediately post-WWII?

> "I feel I must remind you that it is an undeniable, and may I say a fundamental quality of man, that when faced with extinction, every alternative is preferable." - Dr. Leonard Church

It turns out that debt and money are no problem when your existence is threatened by an enemy who ideologically is committed to your total extermination. The Cold War made spending on military tech a non issue because the alternative was falling behind the Communists and possibly losing a war.

Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#44

Post by User23 »

thwayunion wrote: post #25
cma wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why will academic R&D begin falling below the rate of inflation? I get that it can't outpace it forever without overtaking the economy.

> Why will academic R&D begin falling below the rate of inflation? Debt-to-GDP ratios and the cost of servicing existing debt together mean that there are difficult budgeting decisions on the horizon for many western governments. Academic R&D just doesn't have the constituency needed to save it from cuts. I will be a bit astounded if NSF/NIH don't take nominal cuts during the debt ceiling negotiations, and they certa…

> Debt-to-GDP ratios and the cost of servicing existing debt together mean that there are difficult budgeting decisions on the horizon for many western governments

That's not at all how modern money and economics work. There is no transfer mechanism from Debt:GDP to economic productivity. That's not to say that a sovereign currency issuing government can't shoot itself in the foot any number of ways of course.

Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#45

Post by kneebonian »

xyzelement wrote: post #3

The story resonates but the conclusion doesn't. As an immigrant, I relate to what she says: feel pressure to work hard -> work hard -> achieve results -> benefit from those results. As far as I can tell, the system works. She got an opportunity, worked her ass off, produced a lot, and attained a great position/life as consequence. Those who chose an easier path, perhaps were less stressed but also didn't do or get as…

It's interesting you say this, I've realized it true in mine own life, I worked very hard, and admittedly was blessed with some wonderful opportunities early on in my career that led to me being far ahead of many of my peers age wise. I spent several years early in my career and life working very hard, working, full time school, full time parent, etc. Because of that I am now at a place where as my children have the ability to speak I have been able to dial it back a bit and still maintain my standing because of the foundation that was put in place long ago.

As my mother said "Life has to get hard at some point it can get hard now or it can get hard later."

Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#46

Post by kneebonian »

bbor wrote: post #12
xyzelement wrote: post #3

The story resonates but the conclusion doesn't. As an immigrant, I relate to what she says: feel pressure to work hard -> work hard -> achieve results -> benefit from those results. As far as I can tell, the system works. She got an opportunity, worked her ass off, produced a lot, and attained a great position/life as consequence. Those who chose an easier path, perhaps were less stressed but also didn't do or get as…

If academia had a better effort/reward ratio pre-“X-level”, wouldn’t society reap the benefits of increased interest in those careers?

Well I mean Einstein, Netwon, Maxwell, and Galileo were probably more valuable to advancing our understanding of physics than every one of their contemporaries combined.

The funny part is that Einstein wasn't even in academia until after he was famous. If anything this speaks to me that we want only those people in the field who would do it even if there was no reward for they will be the ones who produce earth shattering breakthroughs.

Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#47

Post by DonaldPShimoda »

Ultimatt wrote: post #29
photochemsyn wrote: post #19

Back when I was in grad school there was a whole set of research people who just lived at the university - but I noticed, they'd didn't really do a whole lot of work. They were just always there, always on hand when the tenured PI showed up to be noticed, and so on. They'd mastered the art of appearing to be dogged 24-7 nose-to-the-grindstone researchers, but it was really just a relaxed little club. Most of their en…

Plenty of research doesn't need millions to do. If you're a mathematician or almost any kind of theoretician or computational scientist you need a laptop maybe the odd bit of cloud time on a bigger blob of compute, in the case of mathematicians you might need chalk. The millions you do need to spend though are on private per-paper viewing of literature, thats the real mind killer. If universities just had alumni acce…

You're forgetting the cost of funding students, but also there are costs in securing prestige for your institution. The university benefits when your grants are large and plentiful, so they encourage research faculty to pursue those projects which earn more money, even if it's not exactly what they care most about.

Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#48

Post by mattkrause »

cma wrote: post #16
thwayunion wrote: post #4

The author is too optimistic. There are going to be continuous waves of mass firings of tenured faculty in the 2030s and 2040s. The overwork and stress culture are going to get much worse over the next quarter century. The problem is structural, not cultural, and there isn't much that academics are going to be able to do in order to combat the problem. Specific to the USA, but also true in much of the west: 1. Revenu…

Why will academic R&D begin falling below the rate of inflation? I get that it can't outpace it forever without overtaking the economy.

Many of the grants haven't been inflation-adjusted to begin with.

The R01, the workhorse grant of the NIH, has had the same "modular" budget since 1999.

Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#49

Post by ravagat »

Swizec wrote: post #8
xyzelement wrote: post #3

The story resonates but the conclusion doesn't. As an immigrant, I relate to what she says: feel pressure to work hard -> work hard -> achieve results -> benefit from those results. As far as I can tell, the system works. She got an opportunity, worked her ass off, produced a lot, and attained a great position/life as consequence. Those who chose an easier path, perhaps were less stressed but also didn't do or get as…

As a fellow immigrant, can confirm, hard work works. That’s the main reason I came to USA – hard work didn’t feel like it would work back home. Nothing nefarious, just tall poppy syndrome and general environmental influence or multiplicative factor. In America, with a bit of luck, it feels like 1x hard work produces 2x result. 3x if you’re privileged. At home, it felt like 1x hard work would get 1.3x result. BUT! It…

I like the way you wrote this. Well done

Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#50

Post by bumby »

ModernMech wrote: post #21
frakt0x90 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To some extent. My wife is about to finish her PhD. She's not even a top-level publishing academic and the amount of work she's had to put in for next to no pay (sometimes literally no pay) is insane. Hard work is great and but there is such a thing as too hard and I would argue academia takes advantage of some of the hardest working and most qualified people in the country (I'm in the US).

I don't know, it's a little bit different from the other side of the lectern. As a professor, I am mindful of keeping a work-life balance in my classroom. I try not to over-assign homework, and I'm mindful that students have lives outside of the classroom, so I'm flexible with deadlines and other minutia. Even still, I'll have students emailing me for more work. They want to do research, get involved in competitions,…

This sounds a bit like what is discussed in the book "The Meritocracy Trap".

The idea being a hyper-competitive environment creates pyrrhic victories where even the winners are less well off. Your last sentence leaves the impression that those students aren't doing it for love of the work but only as a means to an end.

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