Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

latimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

461–469 of 469 posts

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#461

Post by tekknik »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #457
tekknik wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You haven’t really answered why, you just keep saying you don’t agree. How do you create a startup and avoid hiring union workers that will drag your business to the ground?

You don't. If your startup can't survive a unionized workforce, you didn't build a viable business. Not all business ideas are viable and that's okay!

But what isn’t a viable business today can be built into one in the future. Example, every restaurant ever opened still operating today. How do you reconcile this?

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#462

Post by tekknik »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #456
tekknik wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there actually a power imbalance between a general and a private though? There is absolutely a difference in scope of responsibility, but a general, BY THEMSELVES, does not have some special ability to compel that the private does not. The general is authorized to take the privates life if he does not comply. That’s your special ability to compel.

> The general is authorized to take the privates life if he does not comply. That’s your special ability to compel. I've never been in the military but uhhhhh I'm pretty sure that's not true.

And I have, and yes it’s completely possible during a time of war. In all other cases you have at least 2 years in jail. Followed by an inability to get a decent job following a discharge under less than honorable conditions. That’s your second ability to compel. Either way your life is over.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#463

Post by jakelazaroff »

tekknik wrote: post #461
jakelazaroff wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't. If your startup can't survive a unionized workforce, you didn't build a viable business. Not all business ideas are viable and that's okay!

But what isn’t a viable business today can be built into one in the future. Example, every restaurant ever opened still operating today. How do you reconcile this?

How do I reconcile what? The chance that a business runs out of money before it has a chance to become profitable? That's inherent to being a business; it's like the entire reason that they fail. Sorry, try again next time — build a better business or find investors who will wait it out with you. What is the contradiction here?

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#464

Post by malcolmgreaves »

skmurphy wrote: post #420
dubcanada wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is sadly why you need political power. People with money can afford WAY longer then you to just say "nah..."

I think it's less a question of "(politcal) power" than "bargaining power." And bargaining power is not fundamentally about your ability to withhold your labor from one employer but sell it to other employers.

I see what you’re saying, but I must point out that bargaining power is political. The story you’re commenting on is about a group of people working at one location, wanting something more from their employer. The solution to the problem isn’t to leave. Rather, it is to exert influence via collective action to change _that_ situation _there_.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#465

Post by malcolmgreaves »

politician wrote: post #264
dubcanada wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is sadly why you need political power. People with money can afford WAY longer then you to just say "nah..."

The power to compel others is dangerous.

Great argument against the entirety of capitalism! As an economic system, much like feudalism, capitalism is founded on the bedrock principle of capitalists having extreme power to compel non capitalists into all sorts of behavior.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#466

Post by nkjnlknlk »

godelski wrote: post #395
nkjnlknlk wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because people are trained to think in terms of individual actors instead of systems. They're also trained to think their country's system is great if not for the X, Y, Z people ruining it. Of course, those who are educated and those with power often have to face the reality that we must focus on systems and processes. It's not "conspiratorial" to assume corporations are invested in extracting the highest labour…

> It's not "conspiratorial" to assume corporations are invested in extracting the highest labour power at the lowest cost. This isn't what any of us (at least me) are calling conspiratorial. The conspiratorial nature involves the... conspiring part. That organizations are in fact not doing what I quotes but instead working together in back rooms to help maintain the elite statuses. While this happens to some extent,…

The tone of your comment reads as if you're disagreeing with my comment but you're in fact agreeing? I'm a bit confused. :)

A slight disagreement FWIW, > Frankly this is the key failure point of many suggestions for how to resolve these issues and why we have decades or centuries of attempts that result in failures. Because we aren't looking at the complex causal chain of events (which we can't even know beyond a certain level of accuracy and is constantly changing).

I believe that is true in the West more than anything. It's hated on HackerNews (an obviously neoliberal culture) but there is a reason any good economics program teaches Marxist thought.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#467

Post by skmurphy »

malcolmgreaves wrote: post #464
skmurphy wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's less a question of "(politcal) power" than "bargaining power." And bargaining power is not fundamentally about your ability to withhold your labor from one employer but sell it to other employers.

I see what you’re saying, but I must point out that bargaining power is political. The story you’re commenting on is about a group of people working at one location, wanting something more from their employer. The solution to the problem isn’t to leave. Rather, it is to exert influence via collective action to change _that_ situation _there_.

Their mistake was in framing it as collective bargaining. What if they put the owner in the group with them and brainstormed ways to allow everyone to prosper. Casting it as a zero sum interaction--we want more from you and unfortunately you get less--rarely works as well as shared problem solving. At an individual level if they had investigated other opportunities and reported back practices from other employers that matched what they were asking for it would strengthen their case that it would be hard for the employer to attract new employees with their current set of policies.

You have to look at it as a dynamic system or ecosystem. "Us against them" is rarely the most effective framing.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#468

Post by godelski »

nkjnlknlk wrote: post #466
godelski wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not "conspiratorial" to assume corporations are invested in extracting the highest labour power at the lowest cost. This isn't what any of us (at least me) are calling conspiratorial. The conspiratorial nature involves the... conspiring part. That organizations are in fact not doing what I quotes but instead working together in back rooms to help maintain the elite statuses. While this happens to some extent,…

The tone of your comment reads as if you're disagreeing with my comment but you're in fact agreeing? I'm a bit confused. :) A slight disagreement FWIW, > Frankly this is the key failure point of many suggestions for how to resolve these issues and why we have decades or centuries of attempts that result in failures. Because we aren't looking at the complex causal chain of events (which we can't even know beyond a cer…

What I'm disagreeing with is the way you use the word "conspiratorial" because it is not aligned with the usage in the previous conversation (i.e. multiple people were using it with one meaning and you used it with a different meaning).

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#469

Post by jacknews »

vorpalhex wrote: post #48
jacknews wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they all find themselves in the same predicament all at the same time, across diverse markets and services? As far as I can tell there's is no actual downturn in the market, this is all anticipation. And so it's a 'movement' even if it's not a diffuse, or actual conspiracy.

> As far as I can tell there's is no actual downturn in the market You are dramatically incorrect. Unit sales, free spending, rates and inflation. + https://finance.yahoo.com/news/stocks-poised-hit-lows-survey... + https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/apple-sales-expected-to-f... + https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/25/inflation-is-cooling-but-hig...

https://edition.cnn.com/business/live-news/stock-market-news...

It seems like there's a tussle between the finance 'economy' and the actual economy.

Post reply on HN