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EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems

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Re: EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems

#81

Post by mort96 »

jeoqn wrote: post #57
stormdennis wrote: post #7

"The proposed Chat control EU law will" If it's a proposed law then it should read "The proposed Chat control EU law would"

The EU is not very democratic - if they want to do something they will and there’s nothing that can be done about it.

That's not really correct. The European Commission might not be directly elected by EU citizens, but the members of the European Parliament are elected by EU citizens, and the Council of the European Union is made up of one minister from each EU member state. A law doesn't get passed without support from the democratically elected parliament members and the national representatives in the council.

It's also worth noting that the President of the European Commission is elected by the European Council (not to be confused with the Council of the European Union). The European Council is made up of the heads of state of the EU member countries (who are themselves generally elected).

Could it be more democratic? Yeah, sure, maybe the President should be directly elected by constituents rather than by heads of states. But it's not undemocratic, and after a law is proposed by the European Commission, the democratic process decides whether it should pass or not.

EDIT: Thank you for your comment though! I'm not in an EU member state, so I haven't really known about this stuff before (I'm just affected by the laws without being a part of the EU demos). Your comment prompted me to research how this stuff actually works.

Re: EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems

#82

Post by Semaphor »

mort96 wrote: post #40
Semaphor wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, we sent Ursula von der Leyen as head of the commission to the EU who became infamous in Germany for rather having CSAM stay online as long as she could prevent Germans from seeing it…

Leyen is in favor of CSAM staying online? Do you have a source on that? Are you sure you're not misrepresenting her views?

People were begging her/them back then to, as a first step, include a requirement to send some kind of deletion request. Nada. Their list of CSAM that were apparently undeleteable (hence requiring internet blocks) were to a huge percentage deleted within days by Mogis (a German group of abused children against internet blocks) by simply mailing the provider where it was hosted.

So I’m not sure what other way there is to read this.

Re: EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems

#83

Post by shapefrog »

trashburger wrote: post #6

As usual, people who aren't familiar with the culture of software write laws that restrict software. I sincerely hope this will just be a scare like Article 10 was, but it'd be much better that whoever these insane proposals are coming from could be stopped.

> people who aren't familiar with the culture of software write laws that restrict software

My interpretation is somewhat different - they are very familiar with software and how it works, but that familiarity appears limited to just the Apple & Android app stores.

A small amount of knowledge is far more dangerous than no knowledge at all.

Re: EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems

#84

Post by hutzlibu »

pavlov wrote: post #34
agilob wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yet...How can the same organization be behind this? Very easy. The organisation is huge and composed from 100000s of people working on different goals. They don't have any supervision, no democratic vote and if they decided they want to grow 400% in one year, they simply could and would, because no one feels like EU is "their government" they could easily protest against. If they want to create EU-Online-Child-Safet…

I'm afraid all of this comment is essentially nonsense. For starters, the EU system (including the Commission, all the various agencies across the Union, all courts, etc.) employs around 60,000 people. The government of Sweden alone employs more people for a population of only 10M. The EU is in fact fairly lean given its scope and the number of languages. National governments are responsible for implementing almost e…

"National governments are responsible for implementing almost everything agreed by the Union members. "

Well, so maybe the EU is not fairly lean, since they don't do any of the work the national governments are doing?

At least it is not an argument, that they have less employes than sweden.

Re: EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems

#85

Post by Dudeman112 »

jeoqn wrote: post #57
stormdennis wrote: post #7

"The proposed Chat control EU law will" If it's a proposed law then it should read "The proposed Chat control EU law would"

The EU is not very democratic - if they want to do something they will and there’s nothing that can be done about it.

How many democratic governments are there if "if they want to do something they will and there’s nothing that can be done about it" can be used as a filter for not democratic?

Not that there is anything good about this proposed law, mind you :(

Re: EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems

#86

Post by dekken_ »

noduerme wrote: post #71
ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #11

It always seems like a bad idea to attempt a technological solution to a legal/social problem. Surely the age of people using services is a purely a social issue - similar to not allowing alcohol to be sold to underage drinkers. This kind of law would be analogous to making a law that alcohol cannot be physically consumed by underage drinkers.

I don't think that's the analog. Nor is checking ID at a pub. The analog would be that any time two people speak to each other on the street or in a cafe, they should first present their ID to a surveillance camera and stand within earshot of a microphone. [edit] The social argument for banning or restricting substances is also limited when it comes into too great a conflict with the social argument for tolerating in…

I think that's well put.

In an attempt to make "safe spaces" for all the state is becoming surrogate parents.

It's authoritarian and patronizing.

Re: EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems

#87

Post by systemvoltage »

voidwtf wrote: post #2

Seems high time for some civil disobedience. Break the law collectively, let them seek to enforce their ridiculous/draconian laws and explain the knock on effects in court. Alternatively, open source projects that may be effected can withdraw access to their sites and source code and cite the law. Hopefully they forked the code already and don’t need any future updates.

Unfortunately, small guy gets a pass but medium/large businesses have an ever increasing difficulty in operating in EU. This might sound like a positive thing but it is tremendously troubling. Corporations employ a lot of people and if they leave, EU would see poverty like never before.

I was involved in GDPR laws and lot of small biz in EU straight up do not follow GDPR and the chances of getting fined in EU courts is pretty negligible. But, if you're a 500 employee company, you're going to have to maintain an army of GDPR consultants and attorneys at your disposal to keep in compliance.

Re: EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems

#88

Post by moffkalast »

stormdennis wrote: post #7

"The proposed Chat control EU law will" If it's a proposed law then it should read "The proposed Chat control EU law would"

Hopefully the Parliament and Council do their job and shoot it down, as they usually do with the average deranged Leyen proposal.

Re: EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems

#89

Post by shapefrog »

mort96 wrote: post #81
jeoqn wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is not very democratic - if they want to do something they will and there’s nothing that can be done about it.

That's not really correct. The European Commission might not be directly elected by EU citizens, but the members of the European Parliament are elected by EU citizens, and the Council of the European Union is made up of one minister from each EU member state. A law doesn't get passed without support from the democratically elected parliament members and the national representatives in the council. It's also worth not…

> The European Commission isn't very democratic

The commissioners are appointed by the democratically elected government of each country, to push the agenda of the democratically elected government of each country.

Re: EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems

#90

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

noduerme wrote: post #71
ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #11

It always seems like a bad idea to attempt a technological solution to a legal/social problem. Surely the age of people using services is a purely a social issue - similar to not allowing alcohol to be sold to underage drinkers. This kind of law would be analogous to making a law that alcohol cannot be physically consumed by underage drinkers.

I don't think that's the analog. Nor is checking ID at a pub. The analog would be that any time two people speak to each other on the street or in a cafe, they should first present their ID to a surveillance camera and stand within earshot of a microphone. [edit] The social argument for banning or restricting substances is also limited when it comes into too great a conflict with the social argument for tolerating in…

Agreed - that's exactly what they're seem to be aiming for using the pretence of protecting children (I always thought that was for the parent(s)).
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