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EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems

mullvad.net

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Re: EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems

#71

Post by noduerme »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #11

It always seems like a bad idea to attempt a technological solution to a legal/social problem. Surely the age of people using services is a purely a social issue - similar to not allowing alcohol to be sold to underage drinkers. This kind of law would be analogous to making a law that alcohol cannot be physically consumed by underage drinkers.

I don't think that's the analog. Nor is checking ID at a pub. The analog would be that any time two people speak to each other on the street or in a cafe, they should first present their ID to a surveillance camera and stand within earshot of a microphone.

[edit] The social argument for banning or restricting substances is also limited when it comes into too great a conflict with the social argument for tolerating individual choice. To even put the freedom to speak privately on the same plane as the freedom to take drugs is to abandon reason itself, not to mention hundreds of years of hard-won liberties and enlightenment. Anti-drug regimes are merely authoritarian. Anti-privacy regimes are totalitarian. There is a world of difference between policing action and policing thought.

Re: EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems

#72

Post by jonathanstrange »

flangola7 wrote: post #38
m_a_g wrote: post #3

It is almost impossible to obey this law. It shows how uninformed the EU lawmakers are when it comes to technology.

Other than open source stuff I don't see what would be hard to comply with it. Most people use Windows, Gmail and Android or iPhone. At least half of those already do most of what this law would ask.

It seems hard to comply with because any software repository and app store falls under this law and the EU cannot control who uploads a chat app on one of these. At least people from non-EU countries will continue to develop and upload chat apps with full end-to-end encryption and without age verification. So essentially this proposed legislation seems to make all software repositories and app stores illegal, which makes it hard to enforce and comply with.

My guess is that the EU would impose fines on repositories and app stores if they contain such apps and try some ostensibly silly IP geo-blocking, and people in the EU would continue to download and use these apps.

Re: EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems

#73

Post by azalemeth »

The right way to respond to this is to launch a detailed EU petition about it – the EC parliament is fairly open and previous petitions with a large number of signatures have, unlike perhaps other countries, effected a change in policy, e.g. on the use of neonicotinoid pesticides ("save the bees") which are banned in the EU after much action [1].

Mullvad – or someone similar – should therefore really create one. I can't find anything relevant. Details here: https://commission.europa.eu/about-european-commission/get-i...

[1] https://europa.eu/citizens-initiative/initiatives/details/20...

Re: EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems

#74

Post by seydor »

sendfoods wrote: post #9

I am the first person to appreciate the pro-online-privacy legislation from the EU in the last couple of years. Yet...How can the same organization be behind this? Is it a result of the sheer size of the org, with malevolent people reeking their ugly heads? A more cynical "privacy legislation as a smoke screen with totalitarian measures in the backend"?

The effectiveness of EU machinery is overrated. EU is a large organization with lots and lots of money. The people who go there are largely unaccountable to their countries, and are likely to do things that are popular, and they like to show off their work. There is no repercussions for the decisions taken though, because the only elected positions (the parliament) are far removed from legislating and limited to just approving what other people promote.

In the case of privacy laws, they sometimes don't even follow their own laws. E.g. as participants in an H2020-funded project, we were asked to add google-analytics to our website, because for EU officers, social proof is very important. We still have it btw, even though it's likely illegal. The privacy laws were enacted because some groups (led by german greens) were pushy about them -- there was very little push from the populace to enact such a kafkaesque system, and I am sure, that , if the populace were asked, the police and other authorities would not have been exempt from all these laws.

I think it's popular in american (left) media to deify the EU as some kind of wise leader, while it's just as susceptible to corporate lobbying (and bribes , as shown recently) as any other government. This depiction of sainthood has not helped the EU evolve to fix its own problems.

Recently in a podcast i heard Eric Schmidt admit that they were successfully pushing back against privacy regulation for at least 7 years.

Re: EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems

#75

Post by Freak_NL »

stormdennis wrote: post #7

"The proposed Chat control EU law will" If it's a proposed law then it should read "The proposed Chat control EU law would"

Part of that sentence may have been elided. You could read it as "[If enacted] the proposed Chat control EU law will". That is not an uncommon construct.

Re: EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems

#77

Post by hannob »

mort96 wrote: post #40
Semaphor wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, we sent Ursula von der Leyen as head of the commission to the EU who became infamous in Germany for rather having CSAM stay online as long as she could prevent Germans from seeing it…

Leyen is in favor of CSAM staying online? Do you have a source on that? Are you sure you're not misrepresenting her views?

The debate was going on a bit like this: "We should force DNS providers to block CSAM!" Internet activists: "Maybe it would be a better idea to ask the providers hosting this stuff to delete it?" - "WE SHOULD FORCE DNS PROVIDERS TO BLOCK CSAM! THESE INTERNET ACTIVISTS ARE SUPPORTING PEDOCRIMINALS!" (completely ignore what internet activists said)

Re: EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems

#78

Post by thaumasiotes »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #65
thaumasiotes wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heroin, cocaine, opium, marijuana, methamphetamine, MDMA, LSD... Interestingly, the legal structure around these substances apparently avoids banning consumption, limiting itself to banning the obtaining or possession of the substance. But it's worth noting that consumption itself is also prohibited, just without a firm textual basis. For example, if you give birth in a hospital, you will be tested for the presence o…

I was more meaning a technological intervention that prevented underage people from being able to use/consume something. Controlled substances are controlled through a legal framework although admittedly, some of the precursors to drugs are also banned which could count as a technological block on making them. I have never heard of a confiscated child due to the parent having cannabis in their bloodstream - have you…

I doubt that particular consequence applies to cannabis. It does apply to other prohibited drugs.

Re: EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems

#79

Post by worldofmatthew »

DiabloD3 wrote: post #27

No offense, but that just means the EU will no longer be compatible with FOSS. FOSS runs the world, and Europe will find themselves without software to run the majority of their systems. Without FOSS? No Internet. No business. No nothing . You'll have maybe 2/3rds of what ships in Windows and less than half of OSX. Oh, and no Ingenuity, which iirc was a joint NASA/ESA project.

It will mean every server will have to use Microsoft Windows..... Thus, handing over all control over the EU networks to 1 American company.

Re: EU chat control law will ban open source operating systems

#80

Post by [deleted] »

maxehmookau wrote: post #63
simongray wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laws are proposed by the Commission, not the Council. The Council and Parliament work like different chambers in the EU system, kinda like the Senate and the House in the US, but it's the prerogative of the Commission to propose new laws. Elections work similarly in any European parliamentary system. Prime ministers are also indirectly elected in those systems. The main difference is that the executive (the Commissio…

You're right, my bad. Either way, laws proposed by a small subset of indirectly appointed politicians. They're approved by a much larger body of directly elected MEPs. That hasn't happened, yet. I'm interested to know how likely that really is.

[deleted]
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