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Need help with students who've turned my class into a dating service

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Re: Need help with students who've turned my class into a dating service

#611

Post by mantas »

ausbah wrote: post #581
mantas wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who else would? If something makes you uncomfortable and you don't try to correct that... It will keep going. Of course, sometimes that's not possible (threat of physical violence and whatnot), but in many cases it is perfectly fine. Especially if the other person is just naively making you uncomfortable instead of trying to harm you. And being corrected on the spot is much more effective than someone else telling yo…

I mean there's a certain amount of social awareness of what to do & what not do due in different contexts I don't think is wrong to assume someone has (barring cultural differences, neurodiverse conditions, the occasional misreading of social cues), asking someone out out of the blue is one of those things yeah it's not a cardinal sin or explicitly hurting someone, but I would expect a well adjusted 21-23 year old ma…

> barring cultural differences, neurodiverse conditions, the occasional misreading of social cues

All of those is a thing and it does happen. Especially is we include sub-cultural differences into „cultural differences“ bits.

> yeah it's not a cardinal sin or explicitly hurting someone, but I would expect a well adjusted 21-23 year old male engineering senior to know this

Maybe it's a cultural differences or whatever, but I'd say this demographic is VERY prone to misreading social cues..

However, I think this is not age or whatever related. People are different. social circles are different. People move around. Various norms change and people talk across age groups. It's never ending process of finding a common protocol to communicate. I doubt it's possible to rely on a hope that everybody will know how to not upset people around them.

Re: Need help with students who've turned my class into a dating service

#612

Post by lelanthran »

elil17 wrote: post #550
lelanthran wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s disrespectful because it ignores the fact that the women are not there to date, but to learn. Well, if they're dating in that class, then you're obviously wrong; those women who date in that class are there to learn and (obviously) open to dating as well. Who are you to tell women who they may or may not date?

I don't think most of the women in the class are dating. It's clear that a lot of them are uncomfortable. And frankly, we should privilege the interests of people who go to class to learn over those who do not. Even if just say 10% of people found this disruptive to there education, I do think that would make it a bad thing.

> I don't think most of the women in the class are dating. It's clear that a lot of them are uncomfortable. And frankly, we should privilege the interests of people who go to class to learn over those who do not. Even if just say 10% of people found this disruptive to there education, I do think that would make it a bad thing.

Just to be clear, you're advocating that we should take steps to prevent two consensual adults meeting because if they date it offends some other people???

Really? What sort of regressive primitive viewpoint is this?

Didn't we fight for decades to ensure that consensual adults can do whatever the fuck they want to even if some people find it offensive, disgusting and/or immoral?

Re: Need help with students who've turned my class into a dating service

#613

Post by caskstrength »

xupybd wrote: post #602
caskstrength wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I say less shallow as they are personality traits not purely physical. Majority of things you mentioned are not personality traits. > Unless your point is that attraction is shallow. That I could see. Yes, obviously. > It's like saying women on average prefer people and men on average prefer things. It's not a judgment just an observation. Your anecdotes are not statistics.

> Majority of things you mentioned are not personality traits. Here are the things I listed: Confidence and the ability to talk are huge You're social status among your peer group. How well you dress. Do you look after yourself physically. Lets break them down. "Confidence and the ability to talk" is absolutely a personality trait. "You're social status among your peer group" this happens as a result of your personal…

> Lets break them down...

This is quite a reach. Sorry, I'm not going to argue any longer why "has a six pack" or "dresses nicely" are not a personality traits.

> Sure if you'd like data please refer to these papers.

Thanks for the links.

Re: Need help with students who've turned my class into a dating service

#614

Post by Tozen »

britch wrote: post #606
xupybd wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's kind of a hall monitor position of power. Yeah, you appear to be in power but the first person to get annoyed with you is still going to stuff you in a locker. It shows these guys don't know what they're doing. You don't impress girls by showing off how much of a nerd you are. Been there tried that. It doesn't work.

Oh I totally agree haha, what the seniors are doing is a bit sad. I hope they can figure out a better way of meeting someone

That's part of the problem. The other side has no viable suggestions for such young men, outside of them being already blessed with good looks, is tall, very charismatic, well built, popular, and/or wealthy. So, be the top 20% they are already clearly not, or just passively sit around doing nothing and hope to get randomly lucky.

Re: Need help with students who've turned my class into a dating service

#615

Post by xupybd »

caskstrength wrote: post #613
xupybd wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Majority of things you mentioned are not personality traits. Here are the things I listed: Confidence and the ability to talk are huge You're social status among your peer group. How well you dress. Do you look after yourself physically. Lets break them down. "Confidence and the ability to talk" is absolutely a personality trait. "You're social status among your peer group" this happens as a result of your personal…

> Lets break them down... This is quite a reach. Sorry, I'm not going to argue any longer why "has a six pack" or "dresses nicely" are not a personality traits. > Sure if you'd like data please refer to these papers. Thanks for the links.

>This is quite a reach. Sorry, I'm not going to argue any longer why "has a six pack" or "dresses nicely" are not a personality traits.

No they're evidence of personality traits.

Re: Need help with students who've turned my class into a dating service

#616

Post by Tozen »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #255

Unsettled how many HN readers think this is OK. Please think deeply about this situation, using your systems thinking, to see why this is a really bad trend. It is kind of worse than a single guy joining a yoga class for the same reasons. This is a conspiracy to get lots of men to interfere with the education and success of women to get a date or sex.

> It is kind of worse than a single guy joining a yoga class...

Let's start with that point and take the reverse. Are we suppose to automatically discriminate against or condemn a woman who joins say a kick-boxing class full of men?

Her reasons, which others may agree with or not, are not as relevant as her right to do so. In the same way those male students have the right to join that class, regardless of internal reasons. To include we should be mindful that people have many reasons for doing things, so singling out just one, doesn't mean a complete picture of their motivations.

The next problem with the argument that you are presenting, is because a person of the opposite sex joins a class, does not mean they will automatically gain total sexual access to everyone there. This is why you can't drop a simplistic argument, and act as if it represents real world scenarios.

Every adult person inside the class has the right of refusal. If a person makes dating or sexual advances towards them, they can refuse the offer. If there is any kind of harassment or violation of class rules, they can complain about it to the appropriate instructors or higher. That they actually did something, should be the issue, not the belief of what they might do or the automatic presumption of guilt.

What the issue is, as presented by the teacher, is she personally didn't feel comfortable with the opportunity certain male students had. We are arguably dealing with a level of prudishness or disdain versus actual probable cause that violations of anything had occurred.

It would be similar to an old kick-boxing coach not liking females training in the same gym he's in, because he believes their mere presence is an unacceptable distraction and they are possibly sexually promiscuous, so wants to kick them out. That is him grabbling with his own internal issues and trying to impose his biases and preferences on others. In the same way this female teacher is trying to impose her biases and beliefs on various male students in her class.

At the end of the day, the opposite sex exists and people might have sex, so deal with it. The school makes rules of behavior for which people in the class are suppose to follow. That's what the teacher should enforce. What adults do on their free time and outside of the class, is not the business or concern of any prudish teachers. The teacher needs to focus on her class, not what people might be thinking, any possible dating, or the consensual sexual lives of her students outside of her class.

Re: Need help with students who've turned my class into a dating service

#617

Post by Tozen »

mitt_romney_12 wrote: post #605
Tozen wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem appears to be the anti-male agendas or stealth contempt of males and heterosexual coupling. If this was in reverse or non heterosexual, it would likely be close to a "protected" privilege or right nor not even mentioned. Almost any context to where males are perceived to be at an advantage or even having better options for hooking up, has become fashionable to demonize. Even mentioning the situati…

> Almost any context to where males are perceived to be at an advantage or even having better options for hooking up, has become fashionable to demonize. Even mentioning the situation and the inherent unfairness of it can mean attempts at silencing and demonization. Do you have any other examples of this occurring? > It has reached the point of silliness, where instead of focusing on teaching (like you would think),…

> The professors concerns seem to be that students think that the class is an uncomfortable environment, not that student are dating or that heterosexual students are trying to hook up.

Based on the evidence of what the professor typed, she's going too far beyond what should be her professional limits. Her job, in addition to teaching the subject, should be noticing and addressing any actual violation of school rules and policies.

A student in her class can feel uncomfortable, demoralized, or disgusted by the color of clothes someone chooses to wear, the way someone walks, or that a person stutters when they talk. Someone's preferences or feelings about another doesn't mean a violation of school rules, policy, or law.

It is also not for her to presume what people might be thinking, to automatically assume guilt without evidence, to be preoccupied with the possible dating and sexual lives of her students outside of her classroom, nor attempt to forcibly interject herself or any prudish beliefs into the private lives of her adult students.

Re: Need help with students who've turned my class into a dating service

#618

Post by Ekaros »

barry-cotter wrote: post #250
blueblimp wrote: post #51

This smells like a fake story created for trolling purposes.

Dumb professors and administrators exist and the world is big. Incredibly stupid things happen every day.

It seems lot of people are searching for things to fight against. But, clearly then drop them when they don't get traction and the fight might actually hurt them...

Re: Need help with students who've turned my class into a dating service

#619

Post by Ekaros »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #271
ShredKazoo wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not the same thing because of the power imbalance (older students, that teach labs) The average marriage involves a husband who is taller, older, and wealthier than his wife. Is that power imbalance problematic? Shall we pass a law that men cannot marry women who are shorter, younger, or poorer than they are? >obvious intent there is the threat of unwanted advances Not obvious to me. What incentive is there for coer…

It depends, I made a sister comment that say joining a yoga class or whatever is ok, but team leading a lab full of women to hit on them is not. Tutoring women to hit on them or even “see if I get lucky” is not. It is a conflict of interest clearly. Even just having a bunch of guys in a class they have no intention of studying for or completing just to get lucky is clearly off. Yes people meet each other in jobs and…

Are we talking here paid or unpaid tutoring? That should make pretty big difference, in paid case yes it is not okay. It is professional service offered for money. If it is unpaid? Why isn't that an okay motivation?

Maybe then we should ban unpaid tutoring and set some industry standard minimum rates for it. Just so we can avoid any unpaid labour.

Re: Need help with students who've turned my class into a dating service

#620

Post by elil17 »

lelanthran wrote: post #612
elil17 wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think most of the women in the class are dating. It's clear that a lot of them are uncomfortable. And frankly, we should privilege the interests of people who go to class to learn over those who do not. Even if just say 10% of people found this disruptive to there education, I do think that would make it a bad thing.

> I don't think most of the women in the class are dating. It's clear that a lot of them are uncomfortable. And frankly, we should privilege the interests of people who go to class to learn over those who do not. Even if just say 10% of people found this disruptive to there education, I do think that would make it a bad thing. Just to be clear, you're advocating that we should take steps to prevent two consensual adu…

The whole point is about people seeking out a class just to get a date. Like, if you were interviewing someone for a job and they said they were interested in your company because they wanted to date your coworkers? Would you hire them?

I wouldn’t, because that’s not the point of work.

That doesn’t mean you should stop people from dating their coworkers at all.

If I’m teaching or participating in a class it’s reasonable to expect that everyone shows up with the same primary purpose: learning. Doesn’t mean you need to ban people from dating. But these men are showing up and ignoring the whole point of the class.

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