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Ask HN: If SOPA isn't the answer, how do you eliminate online piracy?

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Re: Ask HN: If SOPA isn't the answer, how do you eliminate online piracy?

#11

Post by Avenger42 »

DilipJ wrote: post #7
noonespecial wrote: post #4

You don't fight piracy with laws. You fight piracy with products . Most piracy is more about convenience than price. Thousands of smarter people than me have written reams about this. Its like fighting obesity. You don't just take a drug and get a quick fix, it takes a different mindset that causes the patient to live a different kind of life.

Convenience doesn't justify anything. It is more convenient for me to take a newspaper off my neighbor's lawn than it would be to contact the newspaper company and order a subscription, but that doesn't mean it's ok.

Your situation is theft - by taking the newspaper, you're precluding your neighbor from enjoying a product or service that he paid for. That's not the same as infringement - a closer newspaper-related metaphor might be you reading over your neighbor's shoulder on the bus.

Re: Ask HN: If SOPA isn't the answer, how do you eliminate online piracy?

#12

Post by malandrew »

DilipJ wrote: post #7
noonespecial wrote: post #4

You don't fight piracy with laws. You fight piracy with products . Most piracy is more about convenience than price. Thousands of smarter people than me have written reams about this. Its like fighting obesity. You don't just take a drug and get a quick fix, it takes a different mindset that causes the patient to live a different kind of life.

Convenience doesn't justify anything. It is more convenient for me to take a newspaper off my neighbor's lawn than it would be to contact the newspaper company and order a subscription, but that doesn't mean it's ok.

That's theft not piracy. The marginal cost of production of that newspaper is non-zero. The marginal cost of production for information goods is zero.

Re: Ask HN: If SOPA isn't the answer, how do you eliminate online piracy?

#13

Post by rythie »

DilipJ wrote: post #5
rythie wrote: post #2

You can't eliminate it completely, though companies like Nike, Apple and Microsoft are able to continue being profitable despite widespread pirating of their goods. In part the problem is that piracy is easier than current methods of getting content and partly that businesses haven't adapted to the new business models needed.

They are still profitable, but obviously they would more profitable without piracy. That is a point that needs to be considered. No one can just suddenly state that one company has too much profit. Just because media companies are profitable doesn't excuse pirating of their products

Don't make the mistake of assuming that pirating users would pay for something they currently value as zero. Also there is a trial effect where people pirate software like Photoshop at home, learn how to use it and later on get employers to by it for them when they are employed.

Re: Ask HN: If SOPA isn't the answer, how do you eliminate online piracy?

#14

Post by DilipJ »

rythie wrote: post #13
DilipJ wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are still profitable, but obviously they would more profitable without piracy. That is a point that needs to be considered. No one can just suddenly state that one company has too much profit. Just because media companies are profitable doesn't excuse pirating of their products

Don't make the mistake of assuming that pirating users would pay for something they currently value as zero. Also there is a trial effect where people pirate software like Photoshop at home, learn how to use it and later on get employers to by it for them when they are employed.

but they don't value it at zero. if they did they wouldn't pirate it in the first place. pirating takes time (which is valuable) and storage on a hard disk, which has a cost. so any pirater is valuing it on some level. as for the photoshop example, again you are attempting to rationalize a crime. Companies already provide subsidized software for students so that they can gain familiarity with it prior to entering the workforce

Re: Ask HN: If SOPA isn't the answer, how do you eliminate online piracy?

#15

Post by DilipJ »

malandrew wrote: post #12
DilipJ wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Convenience doesn't justify anything. It is more convenient for me to take a newspaper off my neighbor's lawn than it would be to contact the newspaper company and order a subscription, but that doesn't mean it's ok.

That's theft not piracy. The marginal cost of production of that newspaper is non-zero. The marginal cost of production for information goods is zero.

Marginal cost shouldn't matter. What matters is consent. If the content creator does not consent for someone to enjoy his/her work without some level of compensation, then it is up to the customer to decide whether or not to purchase the work at the set price.

If the customer decides not to purchase it at that price, then his recourse his to purchase either a competing product or wait for the price to come down, not to steal it.

Re: Ask HN: If SOPA isn't the answer, how do you eliminate online piracy?

#16

Post by noonespecial »

DilipJ wrote: post #7
noonespecial wrote: post #4

You don't fight piracy with laws. You fight piracy with products . Most piracy is more about convenience than price. Thousands of smarter people than me have written reams about this. Its like fighting obesity. You don't just take a drug and get a quick fix, it takes a different mindset that causes the patient to live a different kind of life.

Convenience doesn't justify anything. It is more convenient for me to take a newspaper off my neighbor's lawn than it would be to contact the newspaper company and order a subscription, but that doesn't mean it's ok.

I don't think they're trying to decide if its "ok" or not. I think they're trying to stop it.

You don't have to care about its morality in order to stop it (or at least sharply curtail it).

Re: Ask HN: If SOPA isn't the answer, how do you eliminate online piracy?

#17

Post by malandrew »

DilipJ wrote: post #15
malandrew wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's theft not piracy. The marginal cost of production of that newspaper is non-zero. The marginal cost of production for information goods is zero.

Marginal cost shouldn't matter. What matters is consent. If the content creator does not consent for someone to enjoy his/her work without some level of compensation, then it is up to the customer to decide whether or not to purchase the work at the set price. If the customer decides not to purchase it at that price, then his recourse his to purchase either a competing product or wait for the price to come down, not…

Good thing there was no concept of intellectual properties rights when fire was discovered or the wheel invented.

You are aware that the concept of intellectual property rights didn't even begin with the concept of a creator having monopoly rights over their creations. Instead the concept of government granted monopolies begun during the reign of Queen Elizabeth 1 with the East India Company came first. It wasn't until later that the concept of government granted monopolies was applied to intellectual goods. However, when the concept of government granted monopolies were applied to intellectual goods it was done so with the intention of maximizing the benefit of society by providing only enough incentive to encourage innovation not profits. Intellectual properties rights today have become completely divorced from their original intention of maximizing the commons due to the selfish pursuits of individuals and companies that have distorted the laws. Most of these distortions of the law weren't even introduced by those actually doing the inventing, but by heirs and assigns trying to establish and safeguard a constant source of revenue. That constant source of revenue has permitted many people to sit on their laurels instead of innovating.

Intellectual Property rights have been completely distorted from their original intent of encouraging innovation and maximizing benefit for society. Let me tell you who doesn't innovate: heirs and assigns. If anything, intellectual property rights have enabled a lot of people to make a living by not innovating.

Re: Ask HN: If SOPA isn't the answer, how do you eliminate online piracy?

#18

Post by DilipJ »

malandrew wrote: post #17
DilipJ wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marginal cost shouldn't matter. What matters is consent. If the content creator does not consent for someone to enjoy his/her work without some level of compensation, then it is up to the customer to decide whether or not to purchase the work at the set price. If the customer decides not to purchase it at that price, then his recourse his to purchase either a competing product or wait for the price to come down, not…

Good thing there was no concept of intellectual properties rights when fire was discovered or the wheel invented. You are aware that the concept of intellectual property rights didn't even begin with the concept of a creator having monopoly rights over their creations. Instead the concept of government granted monopolies begun during the reign of Queen Elizabeth 1 with the East India Company came first. It wasn't unt…

i agree that heirs don't innovate. But copyright laws expire after a certain number of years after the creator's death, at which point they enter the public domain.

My question to you is, for material that is not in the public domain, do you believe that the innovator has a right to determine at what price they should sell their product at? And if not, is that not dissuading innovation?

And the 64 million dollar question, if they have a right to sell their product without digital infringement, how can you prevent this, without some bill law SOPA or PIPA?

Re: Ask HN: If SOPA isn't the answer, how do you eliminate online piracy?

#19

Post by rythie »

DilipJ wrote: post #14
rythie wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that pirating users would pay for something they currently value as zero. Also there is a trial effect where people pirate software like Photoshop at home, learn how to use it and later on get employers to by it for them when they are employed.

but they don't value it at zero. if they did they wouldn't pirate it in the first place. pirating takes time (which is valuable) and storage on a hard disk, which has a cost. so any pirater is valuing it on some level. as for the photoshop example, again you are attempting to rationalize a crime. Companies already provide subsidized software for students so that they can gain familiarity with it prior to entering the…

Yes it's already a crime and personally I wish people would just use gimp which is free. People behave in a certain way and changes to law won't really change that - given that these activities are already against the law.

Re: Ask HN: If SOPA isn't the answer, how do you eliminate online piracy?

#20

Post by noonespecial »

DilipJ wrote: post #18
malandrew wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good thing there was no concept of intellectual properties rights when fire was discovered or the wheel invented. You are aware that the concept of intellectual property rights didn't even begin with the concept of a creator having monopoly rights over their creations. Instead the concept of government granted monopolies begun during the reign of Queen Elizabeth 1 with the East India Company came first. It wasn't unt…

i agree that heirs don't innovate. But copyright laws expire after a certain number of years after the creator's death, at which point they enter the public domain. My question to you is, for material that is not in the public domain, do you believe that the innovator has a right to determine at what price they should sell their product at? And if not, is that not dissuading innovation? And the 64 million dollar ques…

But copyright laws expire after a certain number of years after the creator's death

I'd argue that this(1) is(2) not(3) true(4).

(1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Act_of_1831

(2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Act_of_1909

(3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Act_of_1976

(4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act

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