Need help with students who've turned my class into a dating service • Hacker News Board

Re: Need help with students who've turned my class into a dating service

#411

Post by type-r » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 4:51 AM UTC

bitmunk wrote: post #393

type-r wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, yeah? If it turned into harassment then no, but the post itself says that's not happening. How is this any different from Bob talking your ear off about some hobby that he has that you have absolutely zero interest in? You just don't listen or tell him directly you don't care. This thread makes me feel like I'm going insane, this is basic human interaction.

Let's say there's 20 Bobs in your class, and they are pushy, not pushy because that would be harrasment ;) Also the Bobs don't give a shit about the class, they just got in to talk about [INSERT ANNOYING HOBBY]. It's totally okay if you say something that's totally not equivalent.

The specific numbers would make a big impact, and it depends alot on what we define as 'harassment'.

Is it 20 among a class of 600? Or is it 20 among a class of 50? How pushy are they about it? Do they stop if I tell them I don't care once? twice? twenty?

These are all relevant questions but it feels like many folks are automatically treating it as if they make up half the class and they're doing the absolute maximum amount that's just under what would be considered 'harassment'.

For what it's worth, most of the people in my college classes (including myself often) didn't give a shit about any part of the class except for the grade.

Re: Need help with students who've turned my class into a dating service

#412

Post by victor9000 » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 4:51 AM UTC

It sounds like the instructor has no control of the classroom. Even in the face of random attendees, the instructor should have the skills to manage and direct discussion so it benefits the intended participants, no?

Re: Need help with students who've turned my class into a dating service

#413

Post by ShredKazoo » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 4:53 AM UTC

areoform wrote: post #378

jhanschoo wrote: post #198

I'm appalled that so many other commenters don't see an issue with such behavior in class: > number of female students have approached me, noting they are disgusted and uncomfortable with the amount of leching taking place > It's also demoralizing several of them, since we routinely have cases where a young man is leading open labs as if they're a teacher themselves (in order to "wow" their female classmates, offer "…

It goes deeper than that. It's predatory. And it can go from being harmless to SA really fast if you're on the receiving end. If you are a SA, or a CSA, survivor, then this is the kind of behavior that gives you nightmares. I know, because it gives me nightmares. And it's brought up in almost every support group I've been a part of. Their behavior is identical to someone who profiles a victim type, seeks opportunitie…

I'm sorry this behavior gives you nightmares.

I don't find this line of argument compelling though. For example, your Bundy argument appears to imply that it is immoral to have any sort of difficulty in a public place that might cause a woman to come offer help to you. This seems like a fairly absurd, possibly ableist moral guideline?

The reductio ad absurdum of this reasoning is: "Abusers breathe oxygen, if you breathe oxygen that makes you like an abuser, therefore it's predatory to breathe oxygen."

Basically by saying "X is a behavior that abusers do", decent people will want to avoid beahvior X in order to not be thought of as abusers. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy: no decent person will do behavior X. This works regardless of whether behavior X is inherently problematic.

I'm really sorry that you had such shitty experiences, but I think your ideas about reworking society to give you less anxiety are misguided and counterproductive (even for the goal of reducing your anxiety).

If you're super risk-averse, you can implement some personal guidelines like "never be alone in a room with another person" or whatever. I don't think your own risk-aversion is a good justification for preventing other consenting adults from being alone in a room with each other though.

Re: Need help with students who've turned my class into a dating service

#414

Post by baryphonic » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 4:53 AM UTC

bitmunk wrote: post #400

baryphonic wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you be fine with going to a class where a significant percentage of people are trying to get you to sell Amway products? And they don't give a damn about the class? Yes? I'm capable of saying no, even aggressively when people don't get the hint. I've even done it in the past, numerous times.

Would you find their behaviour acceptable? Would you find it positive?

What "behaviour" are we talking about? Sounds like they simply exist and are in the same room as me.

Re: Need help with students who've turned my class into a dating service

#415

Post by sacnoradhq » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 4:53 AM UTC

mattzito wrote: post #279

jhanschoo wrote: post #198

I'm appalled that so many other commenters don't see an issue with such behavior in class: > number of female students have approached me, noting they are disgusted and uncomfortable with the amount of leching taking place > It's also demoralizing several of them, since we routinely have cases where a young man is leading open labs as if they're a teacher themselves (in order to "wow" their female classmates, offer "…

This was my first reaction as well - sounds cute and prankish until you’re one of the students negatively affected. Meeting people is part of the college experience, and I definitely met people who attended classes with a higher female ratio in the hopes of meeting someone. But there’s a big difference between “I’ll take an acting class because there’s a lot more women there”, where you might just happen to learn som…

It's curious how a particular app changes the language and interaction culture of behavior. For example, there was a Facebook course at Stanford by a self-styled persuasion researcher who delved into how user interfaces and appearances of websites forms the basis of an impression in the viewer's mind. And then, from that basis, encourages or discourages behavior based on the technical behavior of the website. From there, it would then influence and shape the individual's beliefs and attitudes as much as any traditional PR manufacturing of consent. (Cambridge Analytica, 2016 Russian US election hack)

Re: Need help with students who've turned my class into a dating service

#416

Post by ImaCake » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 4:54 AM UTC

ifyoubuildit wrote: post #371

ImaCake wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Some of the young students in my class take up these offers, and this further demoralizes other female students seeing this happen (i.e. only attractive women being offered tutoring sessions). This is further compounded by the condescension involved (i.e. one self-admitted user of the app told me "this material that others struggle with is so easy for me, and I'm doing it for laughs and phone numbers."). This sugges…

Don't want to make you mad, but odds are someone has done something positive for you at some point solely for one trait about you that they coveted, be it money, your network, your sense of humor, the way you dressed that day, or yes, possibly even the physical shape of your face and/or body. Why be upset about the sky being blue?

Emotions aside, why are we not allowed to discourage bad faith behaviour here? It doesn't have to be a legal rule, a social rule seems to exist already. We do the same for many other actions.

Re: Need help with students who've turned my class into a dating service

#417

Post by eyelidlessness » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 4:55 AM UTC

jhanschoo wrote: post #198

I'm appalled that so many other commenters don't see an issue with such behavior in class: > number of female students have approached me, noting they are disgusted and uncomfortable with the amount of leching taking place > It's also demoralizing several of them, since we routinely have cases where a young man is leading open labs as if they're a teacher themselves (in order to "wow" their female classmates, offer "…

It’s absolutely appalling. And especially so with so many comments suggesting the opposite of the things you quote. Seeing no harm by pretending the directly express harm was never expressed at all.

Re: Need help with students who've turned my class into a dating service

#418

Post by lelanthran » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 4:55 AM UTC

GlenTheMachine wrote: post #9

I suspect that if you just announced this fact to the women in the class - either officially, if that doesn't get you in trouble, or under the table if it would - then the problem would basically solve itself. Certainly no males in the class would be getting dates.

> Certainly no males in the class would be getting dates.

You don't know very much about young woman, nor young people in general.

The females going on dates already know what the deal is. Telling them about it isn't going to change their mind.

Re: Need help with students who've turned my class into a dating service

#419

Post by judge2020 » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 4:55 AM UTC

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #31

GlenTheMachine wrote: post #9

I suspect that if you just announced this fact to the women in the class - either officially, if that doesn't get you in trouble, or under the table if it would - then the problem would basically solve itself. Certainly no males in the class would be getting dates.

Women aren't dumb. They almost certainly already know what the deal is, and I doubt they'd be phased by it if they were attracted to a guy.

The entire third paragraph (sans the introduction) confirms this.

Re: Need help with students who've turned my class into a dating service

#420

Post by boppo1 » Tue, Jan 31, 2023, 4:55 AM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #398

boppo1 wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh I'm plenty aware. I wish someone had explained it to me when I was 16 though. "There's truly nothing you can do today to change her mind. All the things that would have made her say 'yes' are things you had to start working on 2 years ago. Today you can start working on who you will be in 2 years and persuading the girl you meet then to say 'yes'."

I disagree that guys will only see results from self-improvement in two years; there are behavioral changes that should be mastered immediately. Learning to treat women with proper respect and still come across as attractive to them can be highly beneficial, and is not exactly something that society strives to teach. The earlier you master this, the better.

>Learning to treat women with proper respect and still come across as attractive to them

The unfortunate thing is that not only is this totally opaque, but society actually gives instruction that doesn't work, i.e. bad advice. That's how we get 'nice guys' and pickup artists. Young men have an overwhelming need for intimacy that they're driven to satisfy and there. are. no. guides. on how to obtain it.

I do pretty okay in that department now, but only from 20 miserable years of trial-and-error. Looking back, I had no opportunity to learn the things I know despite desperately looking for them. Felt like I was playing a game where everyone but me and my friends knew the rules. An older brother or maybe a coach might have been a help, but that's all I can think of.