Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power • Hacker News Board

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#181

Post by bjornlouser » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

theptip wrote: post #104

I just don’t buy it. To be clear this is claiming that the CEOs are sitting behind a desk stroking a cat, thinking “now I will crush the labor movement and make all my workers feel less secure”. This is just not a problem that Pichai is facing. Occam’s Razor points to the very simple, non-conspiratorial answer that it really is just stock-price driven (ie market-driven) thinking (one could say “lack of actual strateg…

"Not a problem [they are] facing"

Not sure why you think that given that labor is their biggest expense. They have been known to collude

https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/silicon-valleys-...

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#182

Post by marcus_holmes » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

superfrank wrote: post #162

pwthornton wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big tech layoffs should work differently than most industries and may not impact unemployment as much. Big tech employees a lot of H1B visas holders. If they cannot quickly find a new job, they will have to leave the country.

On an individual level, I really feel bad for anyone put in that positions. I can't imagine how stressful that would be for anyone going through that. I wouldn't want anyone to go through that. Taking the emotion out of it and looking at a macro level though, I think the program has been abused by big tech to bring in workers who have less bargaining power and I'm all for it getting a bit of a reset. The purpose of t…

I gather this question is being asked in government too: big tech has been arguing for years that the visas are needed because they need more skilled people than the domestic labour supply can supply. And now suddenly they don't, and hundreds of thousands of people are being laid off.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#183

Post by aeternum » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:48 PM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #71

kilgnad wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the last decade or so, there were several times I brought this up on HN (anonymously), and each time my opinion was attacked as not making any sense. Times change.

I'm not sure that they have changed. People brought it up before and people are bringing it up now and they'll continue bringing it up. I think the tech workers are generally still opposed to the idea

Imagine how terrible it would be to be on a team with subpar engineers with some kind of tenure / union protection so they cannot be fired.

I think this is a big reason tech workers are opposed to the idea.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#184

Post by arcticbull » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:48 PM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #167

arcticbull wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Us workers already have Universal protections and job security while striking even if they're not in a union. No need for sick time, huh. Mat leave, pat leave. Generally US worker protections are some of the weakest in the developed world. So yeah I mean it's possible that these can be achieved without unionization, they definitely haven't been. A lot of those protections you allude to were actually obtained becaus…

We are specifically talking about tech workers here. They generally do have extensive sick time and leave policies. >So yeah I mean it's possible that these can be achieved without unionization, they definitely haven't been. Maybe I'm missing something, but almost all big tech companies have these and never had a union. >The weekend, and not locking workers in leading to them burning to death in downtown New York are…

> We are specifically talking about tech workers here. They generally do have extensive sick time and leave policies.

We were talking universal protections. I said they don't exist. It's disingenuous to then pivot back to not just tech, but specifically big tech. Plenty of smaller companies have less generous policies. This isn't the case in places that have the universal protections of which you spoke. Although on second reading you may have been referring to individuals striking only.

Universal protections around striking specifically are pretty dismal, with extremely limited enforcement in the US. Also, what good is a strike without organization? You gonna get three people outside holding up a sign? Strikes only work if you get enough people doing it.

> Maybe I'm missing something, but almost all big tech companies have these and never had a union.

Correct, but workers are the beneficiaries of policies that were brought in thanks to predecessor unions and the organized labor movement. This is like saying that we don't need the EPA anymore because the Cuyahoga hasn't caught fire in a while.

> When was the last time US programmers were locked in an office? I have never heard of this as a big issue.

You can thank a union for that. Feel free to read the wikipedia article I linked you in my original reply and circle back. Specifically the 'consequences and legacy' section. The history of worker rights everywhere (and the US is no exception) was written in blood.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#185

Post by yodsanklai » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:49 PM UTC

I wonder how the layoffs will affect raises, RSU refreshers, and future salaries in the big tech companies.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#186

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:50 PM UTC

Phlarp wrote: post #157

AnEro wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I subscribe to the 'you are what you eat' view of social media, we are social creatures, and we will always adjust ourselves to fit what we feel is THE group. Any media then makes subconscious biases whether we like it or not. I don't think YCombinator is doing brainwashing us or some crazy conspiracy, more we will conform to this audience's thinking which ultimately is about start-ups and tech company's a…

>I don't think YCombinator is doing brainwashing us or some crazy conspiracy Try posting any kind of substantial critique of a YC company and see what happens to the submission. This site is rather open and shameless about it's manipulation. YC companies get to post job ads that are instantly boosted to the front page and nobody can comment on. They have an official "second chance" queue to force boost posts that did…

[deleted]

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#187

Post by yamtaddle » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:51 PM UTC

kilgnad wrote: post #164

traverseda wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a developer without any formal education (I dropped out of high school) my worry is that unions will be used to enforce credentialism.

I wouldn't worry about that. There are literally too many people with your background for this too matter. I think there will be a form of credential-ism and it will continue to be similar to the tech interview.

Outright credentialism—of the right sort—would be so very much better than the FAANG tech interview, provided anyone could attempt to gain the credential through e.g. a one-off test maybe with refreshers every 5 or 10 years, without some required formal educational background. So, so much better.

It'd take a union to force FAANG into that, though, because it'd make job mobility much easier, so tend to increase wages.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#188

Post by mytailorisrich » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:53 PM UTC

noorkersz wrote: post #2

follow up question, why hasn't apple needed to do this? how are they keeping 'tabs' on 'worker power'?

Apple may have had more sensible hiring policies all along. It seems to me that many of the layoffs come from companies that hired like mad over the past few years without necessarily having a need backed by the bottom-line to do so.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#189

Post by scottLobster » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:53 PM UTC

Sensationalist. What is "worker power" in this context anyway? As an active software engineer I don't feel my power has been reduced in the slightest. We went through a coronavirus/low interest rate bubble, now things are normalizing.

I swear after centuries of capitalism you'd think people would understand that things go down as well as up, and just because they go down once in a while is not a harbinger of the apocalypse or a sign of any grand conspiracy. By the definition of many of these articles the only solution that doesn't "hurt labor" is if the executive suite walks out en masse, apologizes on their knees for being exploitative capitalist pigs, and turns the company into an employee-run non-profit co-cop/adopts European-style labor relations.

I fully expect to get laid off at some point in my career due to factors beyond my control. That's part of the deal, and anyone betting on an alternate state of affairs needs to get their shit together. Also buy a goddamn life insurance policy if you have dependents, contribute to your 401k, and save up a few months of expenses so you can deal with being laid off if it happens. None of these should be a problem at the pay scale of engineers at any of these companies that have done layoffs.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#190

Post by kerkeslager » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:53 PM UTC

jack_riminton wrote: post #42

gilbert_vanova wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a recent counter razor: "Never attribute to malice or stupidity what is better explained by self-interest" Many of these orgs laying off thousands have fallen into the depths of a moral maze -- where rational thinking is just impossible and all that's left is self-preservation.

Exactly, the incentives will explain the behaviour, they always do. I suspect managers being judged on their number of direct reports explains some of the over-hiring.

> Exactly, the incentives will explain the behaviour, they always do.

Who cares? "I was following incentives" is no different from "I was following orders." It doesn't become suddenly okay to do harm just because there's an incentive to do harm.

Hacker News and startup culture in general are toxic because of people blaming market conditions instead of taking responsibility for their own actions.

If it's really about incentives, would you support docking executive pay proportional to layoffs, to incentivize against future over-hiring? Or do incentives only apply when they excuse harming workers?