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ChatGPT and the Enshittening of Knowledge

castlebridge.ie

291–300 of 301 posts

Re: ChatGPT and the Enshittening of Knowledge

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“I forgot it was in my pocket.” And yes, I do realize that intention is part of the law. That wasn’t what I was saying really. I am saying that because we have that, we are implicitly accepting that a lot of this stuff cannot be ironclad. There has to be room for interpretation and enforcement.

This is where the law ends up discriminating in practice. The law professor who claims “I forgot it was in my pocket” is far more likely to be believed than the homeless person who makes the same claim. If it makes it as far as the prosecutors - and it probably won’t - they’ll see the homeless person as an easy win (gotta make that quota, keep up those KPIs), the law professor’s case will be put in the “too hard” bas…

>This is where the law ends up discriminating in practice. The law professor who claims “I forgot it was in my pocket” is far more likely to be believed than the homeless person who makes the same claim.

Totally agree.

Re: ChatGPT and the Enshittening of Knowledge

#292
post #258
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, why have a law if it’s not meant to be enforced universally and consistently? When laws are applied selectively it creates an unequal experiences in the population. No one wants the tyranny of oppressive applications of overbearing laws. So, in those instances, change the law to be fair enough and compassionate enough that it can be applied in all instances where the letter of the law is broken. An…

I think the main problem is not in universal law enforcement but in constant surveillance which is a bit orthogonal. Why should people be under constant surveillance even at times when they are not breaking any laws? Why should someone else have access to every moment of your life?

Good point, but I think my main point still stands: being ocasionally surveilled by the police is OK (I don't mind them looking at me in public places if I'm near them), but if you scale this up to constant surveillance it's a very different story.

Re: ChatGPT and the Enshittening of Knowledge

#293

If you think of the knowledge base of the internet as a living thing, ChatGPT is a like a virus that now threatens its life. This is the same process SEO spam caused for search - it hampers the nature by which things function and the river needs to reroute (pagerank then usage metadata) to replace the lost signal. ChatGPT is more of an existential threat because it will propagate to infect other knowledge bases. Luke…

The premise being that the information is currently in a perfect state. It isn't. It's actually in a horrible state. ChatGPT might exactly have the opposite effect. It's able to detect conflicting patterns. It's able to alert about inaccuracies. It might actually help to improve the attempt of a knowledge base that the internet is supposed to be.

Re: ChatGPT and the Enshittening of Knowledge

#294
post #132
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really understand this hypothesis as it assumes that information quality of AI generated content on the internet will drop as a result of ChatGPT, not increase. The way I see it is that ChatGPT isn't the only tool out there that can create spam and junk content. The only difference is that ChatGPT produces something that's of a high enough quality that it's not as easy for a human to easily classify it as spa…

"I don't really understand this hypothesis as it assumes that information quality of AI generated content on the internet will drop as a result of ChatGPT, not increase." It has to drop. ChatGPT can not source new truths except by rare accident. I bet a lot of you are choking on that. So, I'd say this: Can you just "source" new truths? If you just sit and type plausible things, will some of them be right? Yes, but no…

> It has to drop. ChatGPT can not source new truths except by rare accident.

How are we defining a "truth" here? For example, if I want to find specific SQL query, which will work for my specific database schema and my specific version of MySQL I won't find that online. Traditionally I'd need to come up with the new query for this novel scenario, or I'd need to ask someone to do it for me (perhaps on Stackoverflow). Now ChatGPT can come up with these new novel queries instead. You're right that it can't do it's own research and come up with fundamentally new information, but it can come up with answers to questions never before asked based on what it can infer from existing knowledge.

I'd argue most of the useful stuff people do isn't coming up with things that are fundamentally new, but applying things that are known in new and interesting ways. If you're a developer this is what you probably do every day of the week. And ChatGPT can absolutely do this.

Secondly, I'd also argue regurgitation of known facts is not necessarily without value either. A good example of this is your typical non-fiction / text book. If you write a text book about mathematics, you don't necessary have to include new information for it to be useful. Sometimes the value comes from the explanations, the presentation or a focus on lesser covered topics. Again, ChatGPT can absolutely do this. It already explains a lot of things to me better than humans can, so in that sense it is an increase in quality over what I'd already able to find online.

As for your point on authority I do agree with you somewhat there. I suppose the point I was trying to make is that this isn't a blind process. There are content sources which you can under weight, or simply non include, if it has a negative impact on the quality of the results. You can also improve algorithms to help the AI make better use of the information it's trained on. For example, if I asked you to read Buzzfeed for a week you wouldn't necessarily get any stupider because you're able to understand what's useful information and what's not.

I think all you really need to ask here is whether the next iteration of ChatGPT is likely to provide better results than the prior iteration, and will the iteration after that produce better results again? If your answer is yes, then it suggests the trend in quality would be higher, not lower, as a function of time.

Finally, wherever AI is applied the trend is always: sub human ability -> rivals that of the average human -> rivals that of the average elite human -> super human ability. Is language fundamentally different? Maybe? I think you can argue that generative AI is very different to the AI used for something like Chess, but it would at least be an expectation if future iterations of this AI got progressively worse. Maybe this the best ChatGPT will ever be at writing code. I guess I just think that is unlikely.

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Btw, this is just how I see things likely playing out. Given how new the technology is my certainty isn't very high. I initially agreed with your point of view, but the more I thought about my reasoning the more my position shifted.

Re: ChatGPT and the Enshittening of Knowledge

#295

If you think of the knowledge base of the internet as a living thing, ChatGPT is a like a virus that now threatens its life. This is the same process SEO spam caused for search - it hampers the nature by which things function and the river needs to reroute (pagerank then usage metadata) to replace the lost signal. ChatGPT is more of an existential threat because it will propagate to infect other knowledge bases. Luke…

> ChatGPT is more of an existential threat because it will propagate to infect other knowledge bases. Luke Wikipedia relies on "published" facts as an authority, but ChatGPT output is going to wind up as a source one way or another. And worse, then ChatGPT will digest its own excrement, worsening its own results further. This is what people do collectively, long before any GPTs were in sight. Lots of strong convictio…

And it's a bad thing, so automating that process can only be a worse thing?

Re: ChatGPT and the Enshittening of Knowledge

#296
post #294
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't really understand this hypothesis as it assumes that information quality of AI generated content on the internet will drop as a result of ChatGPT, not increase." It has to drop. ChatGPT can not source new truths except by rare accident. I bet a lot of you are choking on that. So, I'd say this: Can you just "source" new truths? If you just sit and type plausible things, will some of them be right? Yes, but no…

> It has to drop. ChatGPT can not source new truths except by rare accident. How are we defining a "truth" here? For example, if I want to find specific SQL query, which will work for my specific database schema and my specific version of MySQL I won't find that online. Traditionally I'd need to come up with the new query for this novel scenario, or I'd need to ask someone to do it for me (perhaps on Stackoverflow).…

"How are we defining a "truth" here?"

Honestly, I'm not really impressed with "but what is truth anyhow?" as an argument method.

But in this case it really doesn't matter because regardless of your definition of truth, unless you use a really degenerate one like "The definition of truth is 'ChatGPT said it'", ChatGPT will not be reliably sourcing statements of truth.

"Finally, wherever AI is applied the trend is always:"

My statement is not about AI. My statement is about ChatGPT and the confabulation engine it is based on. It does not matter how you tune the confabulation engine, it will always confabulate. It is what the architecture does.

AI is not ChatGPT, or the transformer architecture. I can not in general disprove the idea of the AI that turns on one day, is fed Wikipedia, and by the end of the day has derived the Theory of Everything and a viable theory of FTL travel. What I will guarantee is that such an AI will not be fundamentally a transformer-based large language model. It might have some in it, but it won't be the top-level architecture. No matter how well equipped the confabulation engine gets, it won't be able to do that. It is fundamentally incapable of it, at the architectural level. This is a statement about that exact architecture, not all possible AIs.

Re: ChatGPT and the Enshittening of Knowledge

#297
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but that’s why you have a “human in the loop”, to handle the infinite number of edge cases. You’d never want end-to-end AI for anything mission critical like justice.

You have a human in the loop explicitly to, in your words, not "enforce universally and consistently". * Most people agree that stealing from a store is wrong. * Most people agree that opening food/medicine and consuming it in the store before paying is stealing * Most people believe that helping those in a medical emergency is important If I was in a store and saw someone going into hypoglycemia and grabbed a candy…

> That's why we don't want universal enforcement.

We’re on the same page there.

> if they were having a heart attack and I grabbed a bottle of aspirin and opened it to give them one, I am committing a crime

Only if the store insists you pay for it and you refuse. And maybe the law needs to be rewritten to include some type of “good Samaritan eminent domain” clause.

But let’s say you misdiagnose the incident and the stranger refuses the medicine and you refuse to pay. Even then, the punishment for tampering with a product should be a small fine.

Laws could have linear or compounding penalties to account for folks that tamper with greater numbers of products or over multiple instances in a given time period.

But if there’s an automated system that catches people opening products and alerts the property owner or police then they could decide if it’s a high enough concern to investigate further.

But the alert would be the end of the AI involvement.

Re: ChatGPT and the Enshittening of Knowledge

#298
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with top comment a bit - I think we need tokens that are authenticated to an identity much like SSLs certs. If you choose to use your token to post AI generated crap on the internet, I can choose to block it. I can also choose to subscribe to community managed block lists. I think content on the internet needs to be reputation based, and if you choose to read content that isn't signed by a real person's id…

> If you publicly support Jordan Peterson Do I have to reveal my actual name?

If there's a central authority for connecting tokens to a single identity, and there's a way for me to connect all of your tokens to a central "parent" token so I can block all of someone's tokens at once, then I guess that works.

Re: ChatGPT and the Enshittening of Knowledge

#299

A friend is a member of quite a few Facebook groups. She doubts my belief that these groups already contain ChatGPT-like influence operation chatbots, but was recently surprised when in one of the groups several participants discussed a photograph of a typical large chest of drawers while referring to it as a "locker". Maybe some people do refer to such furniture as a locker, or maybe the first person did for some re…

this is a long-standing meme: any behaviour you don’t understand on the internet must be some sort of sophisticated operation by a nefarious third-party network. The question you should always start with is why and if you can’t come up with a why then you should start from a more neutral position on the behaviour. Spam isn’t free to engage in, especially on platforms like Facebook, and spam is rarely an irrational mo…

But I can explain why: they need to blend-in to build trust with other group participants and so become more persuasive when they are trying to influence, and also to avoid bot detection. The influence might also be much more subtle than talking about political topics, such as just being continuously negative or argumentative to bring down the moods of the targeted people.

Re: ChatGPT and the Enshittening of Knowledge

#300

I really disagree with this perspective. In history the democratization of books with the printing press, the entertainment & education industry with YouTube and MOOCs, and now whatever this next movement is with ChatGPT. Let's just face it, it's useless to predict how innovation will impact the future society, but you can always choose to find its most productive uses for it yourself in the meantime. Stop trying to…

In theory knowledge is more democratized but so is misinformation. Ignore the Big Issue from the last two years and see how tide pod challenges have improved society. /s
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