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Sh1mmer – An exploit capable of unenrolling enterprise-managed Chromebooks

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Re: Sh1mmer – An exploit capable of unenrolling enterprise-managed Chromebooks

#101

Post by folkrav »

logifail wrote: post #10
icepat wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? As a student, giving me access to a laptop improved my ability to get things done by orders of magnitude. I always struggled with messy writing, and being distracted easily. Having a laptop let me pay better attention, because I could work on something and passively listen to the class. My notes were also legible, meaning I could take meaningful notes for the first time ever. I could also combine photos of the c…

> I could work on something and passively listen to the class (This is a genuine question) What were the benefits of being in class if you're basically doing something else and not actively listening? Compared with, say, sitting in the library (or indeed at home), working on the same thing, without the potential distraction of what the rest of your class was doing?

> What were the benefits of being in class if you're basically doing something else and not actively listening?

I can only speak for myself, but back in school, I've always found actively listening in to class to be extremely laborious. There was seemingly just no way for me to focus on someone talking without additional stimulation for more than 20-30 minutes at a time. I typically just read the teacher's slides or was done grasping the base concept faster than the rest of the class, then lost focus the second things started to get repeated or re-explained for other students. Bringing in a laptop helped me stay focused as I could Google stuff the teacher/speaker talked about, tag my notes, insert links as relevant, etc. Basically, it let me go at my own pace rather than forcing the class' pace on me. I could use the time to do further research on the subject as I was taking my notes instead of relying on me going back to them (which realistically never happened).

In the end, it turned out to be undiagnosed ADHD/PI, for which I've now been getting treated for the last 6 months (which helps tremendously!). Not pretending like it would be beneficial for all kids, but there's a case to be made that not everyone learns in the same way.

Re: Sh1mmer – An exploit capable of unenrolling enterprise-managed Chromebooks

#102

Post by sandworm101 »

blackhaz wrote: post #56
Retric wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

School should be preparing people for the “real world” after graduation. Learning to think on the computer is a useful skill and 6th graders US (11 year olds are year 7 in UK) have had half a decade of paper instruction. So making the jump at 11 is perfectly reasonable. Chromebook is simply cheap to buy and manage. The point of these is a simple tool, little different than a calculator. If Google offends you feel fre…

I think we all had no problem growing up being ready for IT, and my parents can do taxes online. Forcing kids to do everything online in school and at home is what's fundamentally new and wrong here. There is no option of paper. Of course, unless by "real world" we mean an army of zombies training somebody's else AI and consuming reprocessed digital matter... I wish Chromebook was only a calculator at school, but kid…

>>Forcing kids to do everything online in school and at home is what's fundamentally new and wrong here. There is no option of paper.

Once upon a time they said the same thing about paper. There was a time when kids wrote on sand or clay because paper was far to expensive. When ballpoints came along someone probably stood up and said that it was wrong for kids to use them as cutting and maintaining quills was an essential skill, that the easy use of ballpoints meant that children would not be so careful about their writing. (When I was in grade school, our desks had holes for ink wells.) Then came calculators and teachers moaned about how kids would loose the necessary skill that was long division. Then electronic encyclopedias, and one of my teachers complained about how Encarta made it too easy to skip between articles, as opposed to walking around the library. And it the back of every arts collage sits an aging film professor bemoaning how digital editing has disrupted the "tried and true" skill of splicing film reals together onto platters.

Re: Sh1mmer – An exploit capable of unenrolling enterprise-managed Chromebooks

#103

Post by px43 »

ricardobayes wrote: post #92
blackhaz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting Chromebooks to schools is the single most horrific act we could have done to our education system. This act undermines the very future of our nations. A big proportion of all the classwork and homework is now done on the screen. There is plenty of evidence that handwriting boosts cognitive processes - thinking on paper is something that the next generation will mostly lack. Rich and powerful are all aware of…

It mostly prepares young people for another walled garden later on, the Mac ecosystem.

First off, Google is in no way a walled garden. Every Google product makes their data easily exportable to a variety of open source and commercial alternatives. Second, how does the Google system primarily prepare people for the Apple ecosystem? That makes zero sense.

When I grew up in the 90s, every school was dominated by Apple computers, and Apple's walled garden made it so if you didn't have an Apple computer at home to work on homework, you were basically fucked if you wanted to work on or print anything at school. Switching to Chromebooks is exactly what let kids escape from walled gardens, so then they could work on homework using any computer with a web browser.

Re: Sh1mmer – An exploit capable of unenrolling enterprise-managed Chromebooks

#104

Post by jay-barronville »

blackhaz wrote: post #19
Overtonwindow wrote: post #4

I hope I don't sound like a Luddite, but I don't think kids should have chrome books, or any type of laptops in school...

Getting Chromebooks to schools is the single most horrific act we could have done to our education system. This act undermines the very future of our nations. A big proportion of all the classwork and homework is now done on the screen. There is plenty of evidence that handwriting boosts cognitive processes - thinking on paper is something that the next generation will mostly lack. Rich and powerful are all aware of…

Thank you for this discussion. I’m generally in agreement with your sentiment.

This is something my wife and I have been discussing. We’re planning on homeschooling our children, which means we’ll get to dictate how much screen exposure they’ll get.

I’m convinced that these devices are only making us dumber — sure, on one hand, we (most folks in society today) can be more efficient, but on the other hand, we struggle with retaining even some of the most basic information due to our strong dependence on technology.

As a computer nerd, my home is obviously filled with computers and related devices, but I don’t want my children growing up in an environment where everyone around them is dependent on technology to survive.

Re: Sh1mmer – An exploit capable of unenrolling enterprise-managed Chromebooks

#105

Post by mcv »

Overtonwindow wrote: post #4

I hope I don't sound like a Luddite, but I don't think kids should have chrome books, or any type of laptops in school...

My son's programming classes would be pretty hard without his laptop.

For primary school I might agree with you, but not for secondary school.

Re: Sh1mmer – An exploit capable of unenrolling enterprise-managed Chromebooks

#106

Post by jimbokun »

dehugger wrote: post #23
Overtonwindow wrote: post #4

I hope I don't sound like a Luddite, but I don't think kids should have chrome books, or any type of laptops in school...

Sorry to dash your hopes but you do, in fact, sound like a Luddite. Students have been using laptops in schools for nearly 20 years.

Yes, but have learning outcomes improved or gotten worse?

Re: Sh1mmer – An exploit capable of unenrolling enterprise-managed Chromebooks

#107

Post by icepat »

Symbiote wrote: post #95
icepat wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not saying it is not, but what I am saying is that you should be allowed whatever learning tools work best for you. A blanket ban on computers and insisting on hand written notes, is just no good. Forcing children to manage bureaucracy to get a simple laptop in class is also senseless. > In England your teacher would ask the school's special education teacher for advice In Canada, they just said I wasn't trying hard…

I draw your attention to where I wrote the laptop would be on prescription from an expert, with guidance to teachers. That puts it outside any blanket ban that might otherwise exist. Some process is inevitable when your needs are far outside the norm and have the potential to disrupt the education of the rest of the class. (I can't comment on the situation in Canada.)

And I did note that, and address it. This is exactly like the line of reasoning that blocked my access to the tools I needed to learn. Like I said, the bureaucratic process of getting an assessment is often prohibitive. Many educational experts are stuck in specific ways, and unwilling to suggest accommodations unless there's obvious disability. Radically different learning styles are not considered a disability, but rather a problem the student must rectify on their own. Now that I'm out of school, I'm completely functional at work, and in other domains of life.

I see it as similar to being left-handed in the 1800's. Eventually we're going to see that the approach we're taking now is just as nonsensical. We're essentially beating the devil out of children now by forcing them to adopt a learning approach that was developed over a hundred years ago when there was no other way.

I think you're error here is in assuming that you will be given what you need if you simply ask for it in school. I assure you, this is not the case. In many cases, I've had teachers (and later profs) explicitly go out of their way to exempt themselves from having to provide any accommodations at all. Even when supplying them was legally mandated by provincial government. One sticks out in my memory as having quite literally saying "then sue me" when I was refused an accommodation specifically required in my student file.

Re: Sh1mmer – An exploit capable of unenrolling enterprise-managed Chromebooks

#108

Post by furyg3 »

Retric wrote: post #35
blackhaz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting Chromebooks to schools is the single most horrific act we could have done to our education system. This act undermines the very future of our nations. A big proportion of all the classwork and homework is now done on the screen. There is plenty of evidence that handwriting boosts cognitive processes - thinking on paper is something that the next generation will mostly lack. Rich and powerful are all aware of…

School should be preparing people for the “real world” after graduation. Learning to think on the computer is a useful skill and 6th graders US (11 year olds are year 7 in UK) have had half a decade of paper instruction. So making the jump at 11 is perfectly reasonable. Chromebook is simply cheap to buy and manage. The point of these is a simple tool, little different than a calculator. If Google offends you feel fre…

The 'real world' is more than just sitting at a desk and working with computers...

and for a lot of us geeks let's be super clear: it's a happy accident that all that time networking, overclocking, and modding our computers to play quake (or whatever) paid off. A lot of the most 'prepared for the real world' hacker news crowd could have benefitted from greater offline / social / artistic endeavors, including myself.

That isn't to say kids shouldn't have access to computers in school, only that prepping a kid for an information economy is not, can not, and should not be the only purpose of education.

Re: Sh1mmer – An exploit capable of unenrolling enterprise-managed Chromebooks

#109

Post by px43 »

blackhaz wrote: post #56
Retric wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

School should be preparing people for the “real world” after graduation. Learning to think on the computer is a useful skill and 6th graders US (11 year olds are year 7 in UK) have had half a decade of paper instruction. So making the jump at 11 is perfectly reasonable. Chromebook is simply cheap to buy and manage. The point of these is a simple tool, little different than a calculator. If Google offends you feel fre…

I think we all had no problem growing up being ready for IT, and my parents can do taxes online. Forcing kids to do everything online in school and at home is what's fundamentally new and wrong here. There is no option of paper. Of course, unless by "real world" we mean an army of zombies training somebody's else AI and consuming reprocessed digital matter... I wish Chromebook was only a calculator at school, but kid…

Apple's stranglehold over the public school system where I'm at, in the 90s up until 2010 or so, was an absolute atrocity. Chromebooks are infinitely better.
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