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Contracts you should never sign

vadimkravcenko.com

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Re: Contracts you should never sign

#211

Post by smeej »

dilyevsky wrote: post #119
smeej wrote: post #21

Also verify that anything you're signing when you leave matches what you signed when you were hired. I recently left a company where, when I was hired, I had agreed in "Appendix C" not to recruit any of their employees away from them for a period of 12 months after separation. When I actually separated after more than two years, the "Appendix C" they wanted me to sign and presented as the one I had agreed to at hire…

Easiest way to do this is to not sign anything unless it involves extra pay. I’ve politely refused HR’s request to re-sign bunch of documents before when leaving - I didn’t feel like digging through them or paying a lawyer and they had zero leverage

I had signed a contract at hire saying I would sign the separation agreement when I left.

I didn't have any issue with the agreement I had already made. I just wasn't willing to change it as I was voluntarily leaving and they weren't offering me anything to change the terms.

I'm not even 100% sure I would have noticed it except that my new employer required disclosure of any restrictions I had, so I disclosed the 12-month non-recruit from the previous company. It was fresh to mind.

The two companies are in the same general industry, but do not compete with each other.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#212

Post by smeej »

tpxl wrote: post #36
smeej wrote: post #21

Also verify that anything you're signing when you leave matches what you signed when you were hired. I recently left a company where, when I was hired, I had agreed in "Appendix C" not to recruit any of their employees away from them for a period of 12 months after separation. When I actually separated after more than two years, the "Appendix C" they wanted me to sign and presented as the one I had agreed to at hire…

> because why believe people are malicious when they could just as well be careless? When your job is to be careful, being careless is nothing but malicious.

I'm sure the person who actually sent me the form was some low-level functionary. All I did was say the equivalent of, "Hey, this isn't the right form," and he went back to his supervisors and got the right one.

I sincerely don't think there was malice involved, certainly not at his level, so I just treated it like that.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#213

Post by smeej »

nhchris wrote: post #71
smeej wrote: post #21

Also verify that anything you're signing when you leave matches what you signed when you were hired. I recently left a company where, when I was hired, I had agreed in "Appendix C" not to recruit any of their employees away from them for a period of 12 months after separation. When I actually separated after more than two years, the "Appendix C" they wanted me to sign and presented as the one I had agreed to at hire…

Why would you need to sign anything when you leave?

I agreed to when I was hired. It was a basic summary doc: I've returned everything that isn't mine. I haven't kept records of things I'm not allowed to keep. I'm not going to poach your customers or employees (for 12 months, which was the part they tried to change to 24).

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#214

Post by jackson1442 »

chasing wrote: post #137

Treat contract negotiation as a trial run for your future relationship: Do they try to slip nasty stuff in there? Do they do stupid shit? Do they refuse to answer questions clearly? Is it a hassle trying to get them to make modifications? Are things vague, open to too much interpretation, or missing key information? How someone behaves during contract negotiations is an indicator of how they'll behave generally. If y…

Strongly agree, noticed this when signing lease agreements. Currently leasing from a place with tons of one-sided rules, fines, surprise fees, etc, and they've been awful to deal with overall.

I signed another lease recently with more sane rules and enjoyed living there a lot more than I enjoy living at the other place.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#217

Post by sumtechguy »

ModernMech wrote: post #23
secondstring wrote: post #16

I mean in principle, I agree with all of these points. But in reality if you stick to these rules hard and fast, you'll basically never accept a job offer. That's clearly an exaggeration, but many-to-most of these clauses are in every boilerplate contract. Whether it's a small startup that's using a generic contract they've gotten from the internet or their lawyers, up to massive corporations, they're all going to in…

> But in reality if you stick to these rules hard and fast, you'll basically never accept a job offer. That's clearly an exaggeration, but many-to-most of these clauses are in every boilerplate contract. In the tech industry, yeah, but there are industries that aren't so employee hostile where you can find better contract terms. I'd have to say in my experience, the tech industry is one of the worst when it comes to…

The funny NDA's are the ones where they think they have a 'secret sauce'. Then you get in there and find out they are using some off the shelf API's exactly as intended. You start asking exact questions and they do not understand how you know so much about their product already.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#218

Post by swader999 »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #209
riskable wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an easy way to solve this problem without non-competes: Treat your employees better . Usually by paying them more . The entire concept of going to work for someone else is that it's supposed to save you a lot of trouble having to sell your services on your own/run your own business. If it has become so much more profitable for doctors to leave and start their own practice then they should be doing that becaus…

> it's supposed to save you a lot of trouble having to sell your services on your own/run your own business Can't stress this enough. Show up, attend to patients as scheduled then go home and enjoy life. All the boring details are taken care of. It's definitely more profitable to start one's own practice but the comfort of working at such places should not be underestimated.

Not always, a vet practise can have 1-5 million in fixed capital costs. Surgery, dental, x ray, blood and so on all add up. Sharing admin and vet techs helps too.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#219

Post by swader999 »

riskable wrote: post #171
hfifjdghu wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This perspective completely evades the actual argument which was that practices behave this way because they're extending access to their client base which is a resource they cultivated themselves and which will almost certainly yield a following the the new applicant.

A client base is not an exclusive resource that only the employer gets to have. If the doctor started a coffee shop and those same clients started going there for their coffee would it be the same? Or perhaps the whole point of such clauses is the very definition of anti-competitive behavior. Also, if the doctor's patients all like him enough to switch to his private practice when he leaves then clearly they weren't…

They could pay doc more if they didn't spend any money on marketing and retention but that would be a lose lose situation, especially as most docs bill money on a per visit basis.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#220

Post by swader999 »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #200
buildbot wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When my dentist retired his practice they actually sold the client list specifically, so I am not sure this is legally true. Morally I agree.

What exactly is this "client list" that they sold? Names and contact information?

Yeah, it's generally called good will. Client list, client interaction, services, and payments history, website, company name. The ability to figure out the best clients and continue the relationship with them.
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