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Contracts you should never sign

vadimkravcenko.com

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Re: Contracts you should never sign

#171

Post by riskable »

hfifjdghu wrote: post #144
riskable wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an easy way to solve this problem without non-competes: Treat your employees better . Usually by paying them more . The entire concept of going to work for someone else is that it's supposed to save you a lot of trouble having to sell your services on your own/run your own business. If it has become so much more profitable for doctors to leave and start their own practice then they should be doing that becaus…

This perspective completely evades the actual argument which was that practices behave this way because they're extending access to their client base which is a resource they cultivated themselves and which will almost certainly yield a following the the new applicant.

A client base is not an exclusive resource that only the employer gets to have. If the doctor started a coffee shop and those same clients started going there for their coffee would it be the same? Or perhaps the whole point of such clauses is the very definition of anti-competitive behavior.

Also, if the doctor's patients all like him enough to switch to his private practice when he leaves then clearly they weren't paying the doctor enough. He was worth that many patients!

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#172

Post by orangecat »

WalterBright wrote: post #138
thwayunion wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's even more dishonorable for a company with a legal team to offer up terms in a contract that are explicitly illegal, and then use those illegal terms to conduct unfair and deceptive business practices in the labor market. In fact, that scenario is so dishonorable that in some states you can ask the court for triple damages if the employer tries to enforce the noncompete

Your having honor is not conditional on others having honor.

Cooperating against a defect-bot is not an indication of honor.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#173

Post by eschneider »

smeej wrote: post #21

Also verify that anything you're signing when you leave matches what you signed when you were hired. I recently left a company where, when I was hired, I had agreed in "Appendix C" not to recruit any of their employees away from them for a period of 12 months after separation. When I actually separated after more than two years, the "Appendix C" they wanted me to sign and presented as the one I had agreed to at hire…

Yeah...when I left a job in 2021, HR presented me with a bunch of new agreements that they wanted me to sign. I explained to them that it just didn't work that way.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#174

Post by anticensor »

nhchris wrote: post #71
smeej wrote: post #21

Also verify that anything you're signing when you leave matches what you signed when you were hired. I recently left a company where, when I was hired, I had agreed in "Appendix C" not to recruit any of their employees away from them for a period of 12 months after separation. When I actually separated after more than two years, the "Appendix C" they wanted me to sign and presented as the one I had agreed to at hire…

Why would you need to sign anything when you leave?

Things like "we have all the debts settled and are good to part ways" are OK IMO.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#175

Post by BeetleB »

thwayunion wrote: post #128
codingdave wrote: post #13

> the best thing we as engineers can do is be aware of the types of contracts we're signing I'd argue that the best thing we can do is to not just make generalizations about what is OK to sign or not. Confidentiality agreements and non-competes are fine if they are narrowly focused, fair, and your compensation is sufficient to make it worth the restrictions. Because that is what a contract really is - a balancing act…

Serious question: is it even possible to get a well-paying dev position that doesn't have one or more of the clauses listed in the article? Another consideration is whether the contract can be enforced and your legal recourse if the counter-party attempts to enforce an invalid contract clause. This is particularly true for noncompetes. A better piece of advice than "never sign" is to simply find an employment lawyer…

My (well known, big) company doesn't do non-competes. They do have the clause of not poaching employees for a year after you leave, though.

And I'm free to work on other stuff or have a side business. People in the company disagree on how much of that needs to be disclosed, though.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#176

Post by b3morales »

francisofascii wrote: post #113
chadash wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> non-competes are fine if they are narrowly focused, fair, and your compensation is sufficient to make it worth the restrictions Yes! This is a particularly true for most software engineers. I have a friend who is a doctor whose contract says that if quits, he can't practice medicine within a 30-mile radius for 12 months. His only option would be to move to a different area, take a job with a horrible commute for a…

I know a PT who signed on of those. Then left, worked outside the agreed radius (but still in the same metro area) , and was still sued. He eventually settled.

I imagine the lawyers came up with some bull like "well actually we meant that the 30-mile radius of your new clinic can't overlap with the 30-mile radius of ours"?

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#177

Post by johndhi »

whatshisface wrote: post #168
johndhi wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Every click wrap agreement online is very one sided. You think you're saving yourself trouble by not using any online software?

They are still right about EULAs. The terms and style of negotiation are "we do what we want and change things when we feel like it, and you check accept or stop using the software," and guess what that implies about using the software - they do what they want and change stuff when they feel like it and you accept it or stop using the software. Contrast that to the open source pattern of making the license a header i…

I agree that, from the user perspective, I'd prefer if all of the software terms and EULAs I sign online were more favorable to me.

But I think it's a major overstatement to say you'll save yourself a headache by not agreeing to one-sided terms. They are literally everywhere. This very website we're posting on right includes these terms in its terms of service:

We reserve the right, at our sole discretion, to change or modify portions of these Terms of Use at any time.

YOU WILL ONLY BE PERMITTED TO PURSUE CLAIMS AGAINST Y COMBINATOR ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS, NOT AS A PLAINTIFF OR CLASS MEMBER

Y Combinator reserves the right to modify or discontinue, temporarily or permanently, the Site (or any part thereof) with or without notice.

Y Combinator reserves the right to investigate and take appropriate legal action against anyone who, in Y Combinator’s sole discretion, violates this provision, including without limitation, removing the offending content from the Site, suspending or terminating the account of such violators and reporting you to the law enforcement authorities.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#178

Post by gnopgnip »

Delphiza wrote: post #156

OP refers to a post from Joel Spolsky, but there is a better one that he wrote that I'll include the text below. It was one of those posts that stuck in my head because it makes sense. There may be an overriding reason why an employer is likely to tell you to take the contract as-is or walk, no matter how much they want you to join. You may think that you are super-valuable engineer, and maybe even the hiring manager…

How are noncompetes the same when they are illegal in CA

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#179

Post by matheusmoreira »

smeej wrote: post #21

Also verify that anything you're signing when you leave matches what you signed when you were hired. I recently left a company where, when I was hired, I had agreed in "Appendix C" not to recruit any of their employees away from them for a period of 12 months after separation. When I actually separated after more than two years, the "Appendix C" they wanted me to sign and presented as the one I had agreed to at hire…

> I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, because why believe people are malicious when they could just as well be careless?

Funny how their "carelessness" always seems to benefit them at our expense.

Re: Contracts you should never sign

#180

Post by alkonaut »

I think I have clauses saying I can't work for competitors and that everything I do belongs to the company (not only on company time, company equipment, or on order from the company ). I have pointed out that the contract means that if I write a bestseller novel while employed, my employer owns it, which is obviously nonsense.

In reality, I never bothered arguing about these. I trust they aren't enforceable and I don't even fear having to pay the legal process should the megacorp try to hold the damn thing against me. They are that unenforceable.

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