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Japan has changed in important and visible ways

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Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#271

Post by notch656c »

asimpletune wrote: post #241
notch656c wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a theory that children have a "language acquisition device" that goes from muscular brawn to a flubby dough-boy with age in most people. IDK if that's accurate but there does seem to be something to it. The countries where everybody is multi-lingual this almost assuredly happens in middle to early childhood.

I think one of the problems is that many people know about this child super power and then give up. OTH, I live in Italy which is full of adult African immigrants, and they all speak Italian. The fact is any adult can learn any language, they just either don’t have to or don’t want to. I’m not saying it’s easy or it’s the best decision for every situation, but it’s definitely possible. This is true even more so if it…

Is there any survival bias here?

I don't want to be too presumptuous here but my understanding is there are a lot of desperate broke African immigrants finding their way into Italy.

In such a situation you would be forced to rapidly acquire the language to survive, move on somewhere else, or possibly resort to crime because you are unable to communicate to secure a job (which rapidly leads to expulsion from the country). Bad learners get tossed into the last 2 bins, and thus unseen.

Comparatively if white American hacker guy shows up flush with tech cash there's really not much chance I'm going to find myself on police radar or starve not learning the language, even if I'm there for an extended period and even if there illegally.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#272

Post by bradknowles »

hogepiyo wrote: post #124
sho_hn wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. I'm German, living in Berlin, and have wonderful friends who fit that description. They live full lives, and I couldn't care less about their German levels. They do enough good things with their time they put their energy into instead. People should learn languages if they feel a reason t…

I've lived in Germany myself (NRW). Idk, from my experience it's cool if you're in the young professional tech bubble but when you step outside of that it didn't feel good to me personally. Going out into smaller towns / cities to me at least it rapidly became evident that you're missing something. Maybe I'm old fashioned or something. I still think there's something to be said for learning the local language (and c'…

My wife and I lived almost eight years in Belgium. I learned enough French that I could get in trouble with cab drivers. And trust me, I really tried. But French is a language that just goes in one ear and out the other for me. Unlike Spanish or Italian.

My wife learned enough business French that she was able to survive, but never became fluent.

There are just some people who cannot learn the local language, no matter how hard you may want to force them to do so or how long they've been living in that country. And I think it's a huge mistake to try to force them, or to judge them poorly for being unable to warp their mind around something that is a fundamentally alien concept for them.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#273

Post by ajsnigrutin »

ta_lang wrote: post #169
hogepiyo wrote: post #92

It's difficult to take the author of the article being repudiated (Wingfield-Hayes) seriously when he has lived here for over 10 years and doesn't speak the language. Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. Idk, say what you like about how journalists operate but living somewhere for a decade and not speaking the language doesn't…

I've lived abroad for over a decade and spent considerable effort learning the local language but I wouldn't shame someone for not doing the same. Learning a language as an adult is incredibly difficult and imo the benefits are limited unless you are learning the absolute basics (e.g. learning the 200 most common words) or you're able to get to a high level (which again is incredibly difficult to do).

But you don't need a lot more than those absolute basics to do day-to-day stuff in that foreign countries, and i despise people who cannot even learn that despite living there for years. If someone lived there for 5, 10, ... years, and cannot order beer, ask for a bag in a store or buy a bus ticket in the native language, that seems really disrespectful to the locals, who are expected to know and use a foreign language all the time to deal with them.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#274

Post by skhr0680 »

amrocha wrote: post #247
petodo wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having a working knowledge of German, Italian, French, English was fun, valuable, and normal especially when doing business in diverse countries and with diverse peoples. That's nice with all these very similar languages using latin alphabet and now try it with Chinese characters and tones in China or at least kanji/hiragana without tones in Japan. Characters are huge barrier when learning the language, because you…

Do you actually speak Chinese or Japanese? Because either of those languages with phonetic characters would be a nightmare imo. The characters actually make it easier to learn the language imo, and anyone who claims otherwise hasn't actually tried to learn seriously

Vietnam and Korea have mostly dispensed with Chinese characters and are doing fine

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#275

Post by epups »

izacus wrote: post #257
epups wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prior generations of Europeans were also xenophobic as hell, to the point of going to war with each other. I really don't understand which idyllic past you refer to here.

And the new generations will increasingly become xenophobic again as arrogant foreginers with no will to learn local language move in. It's a massive trend in Europe again and it will not end well for the expats.

Yes and then maybe expats will go contribute their skills elsewhere, in a clear loss to the arrogant locals who think speaking language X is more important than living peacefully and contributing to the social welfare that depends on a young workforce that Europe can no longer produce.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#276

Post by ajsnigrutin »

epups wrote: post #270
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody has gone to war with eachother in every continent all the way through history. If you go live in a country (long-term, which 10 years is), you should learn the language and not expect the locals to try to conform to your not-knowing the language... you're there, it's their country, their language, not vice-versa. How can you expect a country where people employed there don't know the local language to even…

If I live in the country for 10 years, then it is my country too. Perhaps it is in my interest to learn the language, and perhaps it isn't. There are plenty of countries in the world where people get by perfectly fine without even having a unifying language. Do you guys know how every language came to be? It was through the interaction of people from different cultures, and it is an ongoing process. Germany was not e…

Yeah, sure, you're able to get by without learning anything in some places... but you are a foreigner who came to their country, and instead of you adapting to the local culture (..well language), you expect literally everyone around you to adapt to your culture (..language) and use a non-native language to interact with you.

Imagine a brit going to france, driving his car on the "wrong" side of the road and saying "it doesn't matter, people just drive around me, it's not an issue".

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#277

Post by petodo »

amrocha wrote: post #261
petodo wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me introduce you to wild idea that language is just tool and has nothing to do really with the country/culture. I may loved China (at least first few years) where I lived for years without loving their politicians and learning language (beyond few useful phrase and numbers), same goes actually for many countries I travelled. My kid is citizen of country A, was born in country B and lives in country C speaking lan…

That idea is insane, it's well established that language shapes thought. Ask any multilingual person and they'll tell you their personality changes from language to language. I'm glad your kid speaks a bunch of languages, but if they don't learn A they'll never be able to fully culturally connect with country A either.

> Ask any multilingual person and they'll tell you their personality changes from language to language.

I disagree with this, I'm same person whether I communicate in English or my mother tongue, you could ask what people speaking English think of me, people speaking my mother tongue think of me and you would get pretty consistent decription.

> if they don't learn A they'll never be able to fully culturally connect with country A either.

I'm fine with that since A) they are not living there anyway, B) language of country B is actually very similar to country A, so much that people from these countries can talk to each other in their own local languages, C) I don't have really high opinion about culture of any of these countries or some "country culture" per se.

I am beyond some stupid lines on map or languages, although it may be difficult to comprehend for children when their school books are intended for kids born here, so they read there nonsense such as "Our mother country is A" and I have to correct it at home, that this is not our mother country, this is country where we live.

As mixed race/country kids living in country of neither of their parents it will be a bit confusing, but not necessarily bad, at least they won't be tied by concept of single home and some single country, which I find limiting when I look at others being proud about country they were born in as if it were some of their accomplishments. I have same attitude about people being happy about some athlete from same country winning some medal as if country had anything to do with that, great for the athlete, but it has nothing to do with you.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#278

Post by anlsh »

petodo wrote: post #215
kleene_op wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems pretty weird to me as well. I don't understand how you could love a country enough to live and work there for a decade but not try to learn its language.

Let me introduce you to wild idea that language is just tool and has nothing to do really with the country/culture. I may loved China (at least first few years) where I lived for years without loving their politicians and learning language (beyond few useful phrase and numbers), same goes actually for many countries I travelled. My kid is citizen of country A, was born in country B and lives in country C speaking lan…

> Let me introduce you to wild idea that language is just tool and has nothing to do really with the country/culture

This is a wild idea because it's false. It's hard to be a part of any culture if you don't speak the language. All you've said is that knowing a language doesn't make you part of a culture, which nobody would disagree with in the first place

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#279

Post by varnaud »

petodo wrote: post #204
ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not verbose but it seems pretty self-evident to me. In Europe most people speak only the local language and little English, if you don't speak the language you're not integrated. Your local businesses won't speak English, your baker, the cab drivers, the people working the public transport, at your local convenience store, the government officials, the deliverymen, your child's school-teacher, other parents at s…

> Your local businesses won't speak English, your baker, the cab drivers, the people working the public transport, at your local convenience store, the government officials, the deliverymen, your child's school-teacher, other parents at school, 90% of the people you will cross path with on the street, most written and recorded information about local events... And why would I wanna speak with baker, cab driver, publi…

The way you write feels like English isn't your first language. Sorry if I'm wrong, French is my native language. But in case you had to learn English, you need to understand that you had the time, resources and intelligence to learn it to a very proficient degree. This isn't true for everyone. The parents you're calling obese and ignorant, they might be a bit like you in that they don't want to use their time to learn something they don't really have to and rather spend time with their children. Older folks usually had very poor English education at school if any and consumed zero English media, unlike a kid today with access to the Internet.

Also in many countries, teachers and hospital workers, amongst other professions, are government workers. You calling them usually lazy people is insulting and ignorant.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#280

Post by pell »

trompetenaccoun wrote: post #235
sho_hn wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. I'm German, living in Berlin, and have wonderful friends who fit that description. They live full lives, and I couldn't care less about their German levels. They do enough good things with their time they put their energy into instead. People should learn languages if they feel a reason t…

Berlin is full of people with attitudes like that (both local and foreign), and that's part of the reason why the city is in such a sorry state. It's funny, in addition to those expats who only speak American/British you get a ton of immigrants who speak neither English nor German in a way that any sort of meaningful conversation would be possible. But it doesn't matter because no one cares, not even the government.…

>And then every other week in a moment of brief clarity, some of them wonder why nothing works, from mail delivery over construction to even just holding an election.

Berlin has plenty of issues. But I don't think the points you raised here are meaningfully connected with people's language skills.

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