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Japan has changed in important and visible ways

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Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#231

Post by weberer »

pavlov wrote: post #107
rullelito wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. You haven't been to Sweden then.

Or Finland, or the Netherlands, etc. English is so widely spoken in these countries that many foreigners manage entirely without learning the local language. It’s got to the point that in central Helsinki, you often can’t get service in Finnish in bars or restaurants.

>It’s got to the point that in central Helsinki, you often can’t get service in Finnish in bars or restaurants.

I've only seen that at Fafa's, but that's part of their "international" branding.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#232

Post by cr1895 »

0xmarcin wrote: post #153
hogepiyo wrote: post #92

It's difficult to take the author of the article being repudiated (Wingfield-Hayes) seriously when he has lived here for over 10 years and doesn't speak the language. Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. Idk, say what you like about how journalists operate but living somewhere for a decade and not speaking the language doesn't…

I agree with you in principle. In practice English is often all you need if you live in a big city. When I look at my country (Poland), I can see that a person can live in Warsaw (capital city) or any of the biggest 5 cities without knowing any Polish. Even having an appointment with english speaking doctor is not a problem. OTOH when you adventure outside of big cities you suddenly find yourself in a land where nobo…

>learn Danish to B2 level, just in case e.g. an accident to be able to call a police or an ambulance.

I don’t think Denmark is the best example here. English competency is _extremely_ high and Danish is quite a difficult language to grasp (as far as I know as an A2/B1 Swedish learner).

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#233

Post by _benedict »

Aaronmacaron wrote: post #214
_benedict wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people are really bad at language, and depending on the context it’s probably fine to let them off the hook. I once participated in a French class in Paris with a guy whose wife was French, and he was utterly hopeless. I’m not sure he was ever going to develop the skill, even though he tried. Though I hope I’m wrong about that. I think a journalist writing about a country is a special case though, that doesn’t g…

I don't really believe this. Of course some people have more of a tendency to be good at languages than others but I think the guy from you story probably didn't try hard enough or maybe had a completely wrong approach. There are many countries where virtually all people speak a foreign language which shows that it is possible for almost anybody to pick up another language.

I really dislike the “didn’t try hard enough” angle. He seemed to be trying, he really wanted to be able to settle in to a productive life with his wife there. It’s lacking in empathy to assume you have all the relevant facts to pass judgement.

Countries where people are multilingual from a young age clearly have some major differences to those where they are not, and even in those countries many people are not multilingual.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#234

Post by pavlov »

weberer wrote: post #231
pavlov wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or Finland, or the Netherlands, etc. English is so widely spoken in these countries that many foreigners manage entirely without learning the local language. It’s got to the point that in central Helsinki, you often can’t get service in Finnish in bars or restaurants.

>It’s got to the point that in central Helsinki, you often can’t get service in Finnish in bars or restaurants. I've only seen that at Fafa's, but that's part of their "international" branding.

Happens to me roughly 1/3 of the time in Kallio restaurants (not the oldschool grimy ones) and central fine dining spots.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#235

Post by trompetenaccoun »

sho_hn wrote: post #109
hogepiyo wrote: post #92

It's difficult to take the author of the article being repudiated (Wingfield-Hayes) seriously when he has lived here for over 10 years and doesn't speak the language. Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. Idk, say what you like about how journalists operate but living somewhere for a decade and not speaking the language doesn't…

> Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. I'm German, living in Berlin, and have wonderful friends who fit that description. They live full lives, and I couldn't care less about their German levels. They do enough good things with their time they put their energy into instead. People should learn languages if they feel a reason t…

Berlin is full of people with attitudes like that (both local and foreign), and that's part of the reason why the city is in such a sorry state. It's funny, in addition to those expats who only speak American/British you get a ton of immigrants who speak neither English nor German in a way that any sort of meaningful conversation would be possible. But it doesn't matter because no one cares, not even the government. And then every other week in a moment of brief clarity, some of them wonder why nothing works, from mail delivery over construction to even just holding an election.

In summary: AchBerlin.jpg

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#236

Post by zirgs »

petodo wrote: post #204
ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not verbose but it seems pretty self-evident to me. In Europe most people speak only the local language and little English, if you don't speak the language you're not integrated. Your local businesses won't speak English, your baker, the cab drivers, the people working the public transport, at your local convenience store, the government officials, the deliverymen, your child's school-teacher, other parents at s…

> Your local businesses won't speak English, your baker, the cab drivers, the people working the public transport, at your local convenience store, the government officials, the deliverymen, your child's school-teacher, other parents at school, 90% of the people you will cross path with on the street, most written and recorded information about local events... And why would I wanna speak with baker, cab driver, publi…

In many countries governments are only allowed to communicate in the official language.

So stuff like tax forms or whatever will not be available in any other languages. You'll have to get a translator yourself.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#237

Post by bigpeopleareold »

bogantech wrote: post #105
rullelito wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. You haven't been to Sweden then.

Idk why this was downvoted? There's not much pressure to learn Swedish because everyone here is fluent in English. While doing my Swedish language course I met people that had lived here for 20 years and never learnt it

A lot of countries require a certain level of language knowledge to gain permanent residency. I can't imagine Sweden is too different than its western neighbor, where I have and still reside. I guess they realized that they aren't moving and need to have a plan when they retire? (I did read something in Norwegian immigration rules that it is possible if someone has lived for a significant amount of time, they can achieve permanent residency. Maybe there are stipulations. I don't know if the same thing is present in Sweden.)

It takes a bit a passion to keep on learning. I experience well enough, even though I still struggle with it. But living here, I do have a sense of FOMO though if I don't know what is happening where I live and having to be stuck translating everything or asking for summaries is extremely tedious.

I did think in the past that if universities require students to sit through local language lessons, in part to be prepared for other classes, what is the other part? My sense is that students have a lot of potential for local economies. The same "welfare" grant is rarely given by companies, where maintaining a workforce of contributing and skilled professionals could be equally as important. Yet, I found exactly one company in my own job searches that offer a stipend for a basic language course for a job that otherwise requires just English abilities. That actually sounds like an excellent job perk. This is really why people could sit 20 years without knowing more than a few phrases and can read signs. Maybe the cost of courses is not within a budget for something that is mostly optional for work life. But it is a damn shame anyway. For myself, I never took a course. I wish I did, but my language knowledge played a significant role in getting a lead developer position at a very good company (I kept saying in interviews that this is exactly something I want to improve :) )

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#238

Post by petodo »

ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #228
petodo wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your local businesses won't speak English, your baker, the cab drivers, the people working the public transport, at your local convenience store, the government officials, the deliverymen, your child's school-teacher, other parents at school, 90% of the people you will cross path with on the street, most written and recorded information about local events... And why would I wanna speak with baker, cab driver, publi…

90% of people on the street won't speak English in big European cities, no. I'm sure you can find some cities where they do like Stockholm, but that's the exception not the rule. The rest of the things you said only confirm you have no intention to integrate and to be a pleasant addition to the community you live in. Your comments about people who don't speak English, and your attitude towards local workers are prett…

> 90% of people on the street won't speak English in big European cities, no.

And who chose that percentage as some holy grail or something important? I'd say in big European cities at least 40-60% of people in productive age (18-60) will speak at least basic English, though not sure how is it relevant, even if only 1/3 of people in street spoke English it would be plenty.

> The rest of the things you said only confirm you have no intention to integrate and to be a pleasant addition to the community you live in.

The rest of the things have nothing really to do with integration since I behave same even in my home country, I don't see reason to wate my time with small talks and people doing their jobs, I have better things to do like spending time with my kids or rest. Not even sure what's pleasant addition and what's the community, those are foreign words for me, I am independent adult who doesn't feel urge to be part of some community as some young childless kid looking for their place in the word.

> Your comments about people who don't speak English, and your attitude towards local workers are pretty EFFICIENT/TIME SAVING.

FTFY

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#239

Post by mgraczyk »

danielscrubs wrote: post #192
somenameforme wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here [1] is a graph of the Japanese markets. Keep in mind the logarithmic scale. Japan's economy was substantially healthier 30 years ago, and that's not cherry picking COVID stuff since it had nothing to do with that. Similarly, they've also seen their population start to die off by the millions. [2] That makes it impossible to really compare US and Japan on many things. 30 years of economic stagnation/decline paire…

Your chart kind of drives the point home. Who wants to own Japanese stocks when those companies are giving money to the employees? Compare to owning amazon stock where the employees are treated inhumanly to drive the stock valuation up. You need to check what the common man has in the wallet instead. Let US be US and Japan be Japan is all Im saying.

They aren't getting paid more, the companies simply make less money. Look at PPP wages over time

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#240

Post by epups »

ManuelKiessling wrote: post #217
petodo wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German is not lingua franca spoken by people all around world, so yes, this comparison is ridiculous comparing lanugage taught everywhere in world with niche language, which is less popular than Chinese as foreign language.

English is spoken by people all around the world, but not all people around the world speak English. Also, those expats living an English life in Berlin etc. are doing themselves a huge disservice — you learn a language if and only if you are forced to hear and speak it. By attending meetups and softly forcing your language onto the group, you are never going to break out of your bubble. It’s a lose-lose situation fo…

> It’s a lose-lose situation for everyone involved, really. The German speaker is limited in what she or he can express, the German audience is limited in what they can understand, the English audience doesn’t progress in learning the language of their new home country.

Maybe, but by not learning German they expats miss out on access to about 40 million Germans/Austrians/Swiss who don't also speak English (and they are likely not the smartest ones either). By not learning English, the locals block themselves out of a vast amount of knowledge and resources contributed by over 1 billion people.

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