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Antidepressants help bacteria resist antibiotics: study

nature.com

81–90 of 139 posts

Re: Antidepressants help bacteria resist antibiotics: study

#81
post #4

Interesting and potentially dangerous. But as long as many millions of pigs are covered in antibiotic foam (which is just rinsed off into the drain), I'm not gonna lie sleepless over this. Resistant bacteria will cause humanity huge troubles if we don't manage to do something radical soon.

The answer is phages. But last time I went into the rabbit hole the TLDR was that it is not patentable so there's no money in it. And everyone needs a different phages cocktail. I sleep at night knowing that push come to shove someone will step in and mass produce machines to create personal phage cocktails.

Yay another phage thread!

Phages do work, and we've treated a small bunch of people at Phage Australia for our clinical trial.

There's a few things about using phages for treatments I think everyone should be aware of:

(1) phages work!! The physicians we work with (and ourselves) are surprised every time they work. It's just really labor and time-intensive.

(2) if antibiotics are "bite sized snacks" then phages are like "getting a personalized chef - a course of phages should be highly personalized to the pathogens causing trouble, and sometimes the antibiotics. Too generic and it won't work. Too personalized and it's too expensive. Tricky balance. We're collecting data and trying to figure out what that balance is. Every patient is very different though and it's hard to draw conclusions and see patterns.

(3) at Phage Australia we're not doing the cocktail approach — we're (trying to) assembling a library of phages that should be able to cover lots of common pathogens and local outbreaks. We work with antibiotic resistance reference labs and hopefully eventually get enough coverage, by building a library of phages that we can mix and match before we get an inquiry. The TGA is onboard with this. (The FDA is looking into this tentatively; look up Adaptive Phage Therapeutics). The kind of phage therapy we're looking at is closer to CAR T-cell therapy, FMT and other kinds of individual / personalized therapies.

tl;dr: Phages work, but getting them and getting/paying for them is more like a service and less like a pill. It's also very expensive and hard to do today. We to work with regulators to push more personalized therapies. The age of generic pills in a bottle is slowly fading away.

(Source: I'm the "computer person" aka research software engineer on the Phage Australia clinical trial)

Re: Antidepressants help bacteria resist antibiotics: study

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could someone explain this to me like I'm 5?

Not just higher life is plagued by viruses, bacteria as well. And bacteriophages are viruses that only target specific bacteria. They are among the most abundant "forms of life" in the whole world, as google details: > There are up to ten times more phages in the oceans than there are bacteria, reaching levels of 250 million bacteriophages per millilitre of seawater. If we were able to quickly find the right phage fo…

There's always a virus out there that can kill a bacteria. Or, we can just engineer one to kill a bacteria.

It's just... really hard, takes weeks to months (if you're engineering, and then it's GMO, which is another can of regulatory worms).

It's not even expensive; we just use regular lab equipment. But people are doing lot of things by hand today. But we're finding ways to scale up and insert robots like OpenTrons and Singer!

> extremely limited for technical and financial reasons

The severance packages of each tech layoffs is more than what our entire field gets every year in funding.

Re: Antidepressants help bacteria resist antibiotics: study

#83
post #66

How is something 3 or 4 on the front page here thats been known since the 40s?

Article is about non-antibiotic medications contributing to antibiotic resistance. Has that been known?

I work with a bunch of researchers and physicians on antibiotic resistance every day and I had no idea (though tbf I'm just the "computer guy" here)

Re: Antidepressants help bacteria resist antibiotics: study

#84

Factory farm companies have known that anti-biotics, hormones, and pesticides are causing increased rates of cancer and other (cough cough) disorders in the same way big oil knew that it was contributing to/causing global warming. Every person in the comments across the internet saying the rise in all of these disorders was just about self-reporting have been unknowingly shilling for big food. Being anti conspiracy a…

> Factory farm companies have known that anti-biotics, hormones, and pesticides are causing increased rates of cancer and other (cough cough) disorders This may be true in specific cases... But surely isn't true in general. It's the role of science and government to find out which anti-biotics, which hormones, and which pesticides case increased rates of which cancers. As soon as there is evidence suggesting a specif…

But surely isn't true in general.

Why not? Wealth-making attracts two kinds of people: those who are interested in mutually beneficial exchanges, and those who see trade as a zero- or negative-sum game. Research suggests these groups exist in a roughly 60:40 proportion to each other in human populations: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.1600451

I do think your disagreement is sincere, since you propose allocating a tax on technological deployment to fund research and backing that up with strong regulation. But you overlook the phenomenon of regulatory capture by industry and bad-faith politicking. Just recently we saw how a regulator's observations about the surprisingly high negative externalities of gas stoves was quickly turned into a political football, pre-empting any meaningful policy discussion.

Re: Antidepressants help bacteria resist antibiotics: study

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah the gut microbiome is the next big thing for sure. It should be easy to study. Food logs, mood logs, medication logs, next generation sequencing and maybe some metabolic profiling and we should be able to find interesting correlations. I know my mood changes drastically down when I fail to eat properly for a period of time.

As if omics research isn't hard enough, there's a confounding layer of privacy and incentive problems here. From a science angle it makes more sense to just collect this data from everybody all the time and let the studies be post hoc explorations of that giant dataset. But how do you get people to cooperate when they have reason to believe that the data will be used against them? Either we accept the diminished valu…

give out equity to the study participants. I'll hand over data of you give me some equity on future ideas built on that data. l Like artists getting payed royalties.

Re: Antidepressants help bacteria resist antibiotics: study

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is phages. But last time I went into the rabbit hole the TLDR was that it is not patentable so there's no money in it. And everyone needs a different phages cocktail. I sleep at night knowing that push come to shove someone will step in and mass produce machines to create personal phage cocktails.

Phages are not the silver bullet that people think they are. First they're difficult to make and store (antibiotics are mostly shelf stable... phages aren't). Second, they are not broad spectrum. Third, (at least in the US) phage therapy hasn't taken off because the initial forays into phages showed that they can cause reactions. Lastly, not all bacteria have phage counterparts. So if you even could use phages, you'r…

Viruses are generally extremely well preserved as long as you deep freeze them.

Re: Antidepressants help bacteria resist antibiotics: study

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could someone explain this to me like I'm 5?

Not just higher life is plagued by viruses, bacteria as well. And bacteriophages are viruses that only target specific bacteria. They are among the most abundant "forms of life" in the whole world, as google details: > There are up to ten times more phages in the oceans than there are bacteria, reaching levels of 250 million bacteriophages per millilitre of seawater. If we were able to quickly find the right phage fo…

>Not just higher life is plagued by viruses, bacteria as well. And bacteriophages are viruses that only target specific bacteria.

And not even viruses are safe from viruses: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virophage

Re: Antidepressants help bacteria resist antibiotics: study

#88

Factory farm companies have known that anti-biotics, hormones, and pesticides are causing increased rates of cancer and other (cough cough) disorders in the same way big oil knew that it was contributing to/causing global warming. Every person in the comments across the internet saying the rise in all of these disorders was just about self-reporting have been unknowingly shilling for big food. Being anti conspiracy a…

Generous of you to think it's "unknowingly". There is a strange phenomenon online where people rush to oppose things like basic animal welfare and improved food labelling or any other change to the food industry. I find it hard to swallow that there's so many regular people out there passionately defending the rights of corporations to torture animals and hide what's in their food in their free time.

> There is a strange phenomenon online where people rush to oppose things like basic animal welfare and improved food labelling or any other change to the food industry. I find it hard to swallow that there's so many regular people out there passionately defending the rights of corporations to torture animals and hide what's in their food in their free time.

I am disabled. I cannot walk very well without an assistive device. I've noticed that, when you're disabled, the average person's level of caring about your disability extends right up until the point where you're even a mild inconvenience to them. And it's for any number of reasons: "you're faking it" "you're too young to have those issues" "it's bothersome to install a ramp for people in wheelchairs" "people's assistive devices (canes, walkers, ...) take up too much space" "you're too slow getting in/out of transportation" and the list goes on. I imagine it may at least in part be the bystander effect[0], but that doesn't explain people who can be actively malicious -- and that happens more often than you may think.

The point of this anecdote is that I think something similar applies here. IMO people _do_ genuinely care about what's in their food / how it's produced... but then _they_ would have to change for the situation to improve. Suddenly it's an inconvenience to them. If the relative suffering of a disabled person isn't enough to convince someone that an inconvenience is worth it, then caring about a bunch of animals in a factory farm is just an abstract concern that they don't care about too much, but changing it is something they care about because it affects them.

That's not to say that people are _selfish_, per se, or anything like that. There's only so much time in the day, life is busy for many people, social media demands attention, food costs and inflation and housing costs and ..., and many more are all issues that are a lot more immediate to people. It's hard to care about things that are mostly just abstract concepts you aren't exposed to, when you have much more meaningful day-to-day concerns.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

Re: Antidepressants help bacteria resist antibiotics: study

#89
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is phages. But last time I went into the rabbit hole the TLDR was that it is not patentable so there's no money in it. And everyone needs a different phages cocktail. I sleep at night knowing that push come to shove someone will step in and mass produce machines to create personal phage cocktails.

Yay another phage thread! Phages do work, and we've treated a small bunch of people at Phage Australia for our clinical trial. There's a few things about using phages for treatments I think everyone should be aware of: (1) phages work!! The physicians we work with (and ourselves) are surprised every time they work. It's just really labor and time-intensive. (2) if antibiotics are "bite sized snacks" then phages are l…

I'm curious what drives customers to these services. Why would someone want to pay for a customized phage service? Someone who is taking lots of antibiotics or concerned about them?

Re: Antidepressants help bacteria resist antibiotics: study

#90
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is phages. But last time I went into the rabbit hole the TLDR was that it is not patentable so there's no money in it. And everyone needs a different phages cocktail. I sleep at night knowing that push come to shove someone will step in and mass produce machines to create personal phage cocktails.

Sounds like the solution is to kill patents so they can forget about money entirely.

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