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The Google layoffs are about personal ambition and poor leadership

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261–270 of 292 posts

Re: The Google layoffs are about personal ambition and poor leadership

#261

This ruling [Dodge vs Ford Motor Company (1919)] stands at the heart of the current situations being faced by companies like Google today. —- It really doesn’t. First, that’s a Michigan case interpreting Michigan law. Almost every non trivial US company is incorporated in Delaware and subject to Delaware law. Delaware law does have somewhat similar cases, eBay v. Newmark is a good one to read but … Second, in both th…

Asking for help here. There was a similar court case in the 80s. I believe it was a shareholder lawsuit and that it went all the way to the Supreme Court. The court was asked whether a company can take into account a variety of stakeholder & community interests in its decisionmaking, or must it seek to maximize shareholder return. In the case, the court ruled that shareholder return is the only legitimate goal. I sus…

I don’t know of any such case, and I don’t see why it would be in front of the US Supreme Court.

Burwell v Hobby Lobby Stores Inc. has language to the opposite conclusion, but it’s dicta.

Re: The Google layoffs are about personal ambition and poor leadership

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That farmer might be happier though.

Chinese farmer probably has higher data rates on his phone for less per month.

And isn't allowed to play gatcha games or WoW anymore

Re: The Google layoffs are about personal ambition and poor leadership

#263

I'll say something I wish someone told me in my 20's: most leadership/upper management is poor. I've worked at FAANGs, a unicorn, and currently @ a company that recently IPO'd. Most people in product leadership neither really understand how to make original ideas that effect the product at a high level or the technical details of the product, their responsibility is to be good stewards of a certain revenue stream and…

To paraphrase, it is not that most leadership/high management is poorer than expected, it appears poorer even when it is expected to be poorer than expected. At some point between the ages of 20 and 30, you begin to believe that, although it is difficult to point out what they are better at than you or your peers, in order to be in the position they are in, "leaders" must be better in some way--say, in the technical…

The reason executives talk the way they do is because when you’re speaking to thousands of people everyone has different base context and interprets things a little different. Messages need to be coarse grained and contain little nuance. This is at the heart of all politics.

It’s easy to assume therefore that the words are intellectual garbage, but that’s not always the case. In fact there’s no way to tell competent and incompetent leadership apart just from speeches they give, but make no mistake the distinction exists, and as an employee it’s critical to ferret out the answer over time as you will learn entirely the wrong lessons if you work for muppets for any length of time.

Fortunately good leadership does exist. It is usually built over decades of a solid skill foundation (ie. Experts leading experts) rather than MBAs, and the top skill is sniffing out bullshit. Of course every company has a mix of people, but in healthy ones there will be a critical mass of competent people and they generally know who each other are and keep things pointed in the right direction.

Re: The Google layoffs are about personal ambition and poor leadership

#264
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Often quit jobs myself and spend some "gap" time doing nothing That is a privilege that not many people can afford, especially lower income workers. You're speaking from an enviable position of privilege while complaining about others having privilege. Perspective.

What makes you think I'm "whining" about anything?

Typically when you use "quotes" it means you're using the same exact words that someone stated. I didn't say you were "whining", I said you were complaining. And you were.

Re: The Google layoffs are about personal ambition and poor leadership

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine working at a company for 16 years only to discover you were laid off when your badge no longer works on your way to work. You can say "duh, told you so" and "well you got severance so suck it up", but it does not take away from the emotional impact of losing a major part of your identity. There are many lessons for us to take away from the layoffs this year, and it helps no one to trivialize it into cold fact…

Don't make the company part of your identity! You are a disposable hired gun. People need to get real, no one ever promised these people lifelong job security and they had no business expecting it. 16 years is long enough to have survived 2008/9: if you went through that and still thought the company cared about it's employees, I have no sympathy.

You are totally right! My point is that the industry’s culture encourages you to make your work your identity though, and no one wins for ridiculing people who were laid off (not saying you are, but other comments here are).

This is a great opportunity to change the industry and how workers view their job.

Re: The Google layoffs are about personal ambition and poor leadership

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So maybe they avoid tax declaration and government no longer wants them in the country?

Who's declaring what now? Paying taxes as an employee isn't opt-in.

Paying tax as an employee isn't opt-in. Paying tax as an employer isn't opt-in.

Why both of them? This has never made any sense to me.

I don't know how it works in United States. In Europe, Companies declaring the money deducted from the salary they have paid to the tax office, the employee is correcting if it is right or wrong. If they need to pay, they pay more, if not, they receive more.

Anyway my feeling is still the same, being employed by google means you're unemployed. This is a feeling. Being employed by apfel would make me feel different.

Re: The Google layoffs are about personal ambition and poor leadership

#267
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given median comp at Google, working at Google is quite privileged. Going to Stanford is likewise privileged. Being privileged isn't an insult, just a recognition of fact.

> just a recognition of fact It's literally not a fact, it's an opinion. Hey what's your job? You don't need to tell me. But I'm gonna go ahead and say you're privileged compared to a rural chinese farmer that has never held a phone.

Privilege is necessarily a comparative concept.

Most people in America are privileged compared to a rural Chinese farmer.

The median Google employee is privileged compared to average American citizens.

It's healthy to acknowledge this.

Re: The Google layoffs are about personal ambition and poor leadership

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To paraphrase, it is not that most leadership/high management is poorer than expected, it appears poorer even when it is expected to be poorer than expected. At some point between the ages of 20 and 30, you begin to believe that, although it is difficult to point out what they are better at than you or your peers, in order to be in the position they are in, "leaders" must be better in some way--say, in the technical…

The reason executives talk the way they do is because when you’re speaking to thousands of people everyone has different base context and interprets things a little different. Messages need to be coarse grained and contain little nuance. This is at the heart of all politics. It’s easy to assume therefore that the words are intellectual garbage, but that’s not always the case. In fact there’s no way to tell competent…

I think that "messages need to be coarse-grained and contain little nuance," as stated in the comment, is a comforting thought, but it has little truth to it. I just have observations, many of them anyway, and not any proper experimental or observation study, but reflecting on them has changed the lens through which I look at leadership and management.

When you say in the previous comment that "it's easy to assume that words are intellectual garbage, but that's not always the case," I see the position/authority bias at work: it can't be nonsense, they are the leaders, what they say has to make sense, if only seen in the context of having to speak all day, or to dozens, hundreds, thousands (unlikely outside of politics) of people every day.

Or look at the layoffs at Twitter, Meta, Google, etc.: even if they seem to make little sense (some of the decisions anyway) in the way they are done, somehow they have to make sense, either because the layoffs are a "blunt instrument," or because the shareholders are asking for something particular or whatever.

I would like to bring an example. A person in my company was hired in a management role, overseeing a function for a group of hundreds of people. As soon as they gave their first "speech," it was clear to my shrewd eyes that the words uttered made no sense, that they were lying about their past, their accomplishments, and that their skills were not what was advertised. If I focus my attention on what people do in a context where I am competent, it takes between very little and not much to assign them to a broad range of competence: incompetent, somewhat competent, okay competent, very competent.

Similarly, I've played a couple of sports at a high level, and if I see people training for, say, an hour, I can assign them to a level of competence, with little margin for error. The guy who does everything differently and originally is sort of an invention of novels and TV shows. Sometimes, very rarely, they show up in real life, so I might add a little bucket labeled "mysterious."

The executive hired by my company fell squarely into the category of incompetent. But because the executive had been hired into that management position by people deemed competent (they weren't, that's why it was a flywheel, a charade), my colleagues considered the executive competent for years, despite the obvious nonsense. It was rather bizarre to observe, but position bias (and "whatever" bias) is as strong as many of the biases related to physical characteristics that we carry around with us all day, every day. And when I tried to explain to my colleagues what I had seen, they did not believe me. I think they still don't believe me.

Re: The Google layoffs are about personal ambition and poor leadership

#269
post #12

I understand that layoffs are a blunt instrument and it is unlikely that all of the “right” people were affected, but Google has long been known as the FAANG to go to if you want to chill, coast, and vest. No Facebook PSC, no Amazon stack ranking, no Netflix “sports team”. Obviously it is team dependent, but it really has that reputation. The well-known tradeoff is that getting a promo to a post-senior level is borde…

The layoff didn't particularly target the rest-and-vesters, though. It frankly appears mostly random based on what I've seen.

That's an interesting observation and something I somewhat suspect myself.

Google's long been criticised for byzantine and ineffective hiring and ranking processes. The thought occurs that perhaps management have decided that unbiased random staff reductions are the least-harmful way to go about this.

The problem remains that under circumstances of layoffs, those with options to do so are still more likely to leave, resulting in a net negative selection against the most effective and productive workers. (Or at least those who can make a case for appearing to be same.)

I'm not utterly convinced of the above, though it's a working hypothesis and will be interesting to see how it plays out over time.

Re: The Google layoffs are about personal ambition and poor leadership

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously you realize that investing in stocks is risky. Risk is the flip side of making investment gains. Anyone who invests in stocks takes a risk that it tanks. No risk => no gains

You asserted that Robinhood is evidence that "labor" in general has access to "rich-get-richer" mechanisms. My assertion is that this assertion is not valid. The rich-get-richer mechanism in question is investing pre-existing large amounts of money in investments that are more or less zero risk, specifically from the perspective of the investor's personal livelihood and well-being. This is simply not available to mos…

Many poor people trading cryptocurrencies made a pile of money. The newspaper was filled with their stories for a couple years.

Of course, many lost money, too. No risk => no gain

The point is, they could invest in the markets, despite being poor.

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