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NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

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Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#281

Post by georgyo »

Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #259
georgyo wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first gut reaction was $115k/person/year was way too high... But apparently a person in a NYC prison costs $560k/year[1]...That amount of money can definitely do a lot of good to rehabilitate a person. However > we identified people likely to become criminals This tricky, because people will think it is GOOD to marked by the algorithm; key free money! Then these algorithm will likely be used in court as evidence t…

So its a thought experiment and so this AI is very smart, like even better than Microsoft's Tay. And maybe it not just on the person's behavior but also family wealth, living location, history, convictions of family members, and so on. Lots of things that are hard to manipulate or would take generations to do so. If you are convicted of a crime even if you had this free money, then likely you are doing crime for fun…

It is likely impossible for the AI to be that smart. You are talking almost about doing pre-crime. The AI could figure out you're going to murder someone before you even know yourself!

But more seriously, even if the AI was super smart, it's still limited on it's inputs. The factors you listed are how the current crime AIs determine likely hood the person committed the crime.

This AI is very smart and people trust it. If it says you committed the crime then you must have done it!

> If you are convicted of a crime even if you had this free money, then likely you are doing crime for fun and not out of necessity, so jail is the best place for you.

> Cities may actually decline to convict because jailing people is more expensive, so maybe this would be a counter-effect.

These are exactly my points. Being marked by the AI gives you money, but people won't trust you.

If you're on trail it's this big weight people want to hate you. The jury isn't likely getting the money, why should this person on trail get it.

The judge has an incentive to incarcerate.

Even as a thought experiment, this idea can not stand.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#282

Post by nobodyandproud »

themitigating wrote: post #197
nobodyandproud wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Utopian: Ex-cons lead happy and productive lives with relevant and in-demand skills. Education system is extended. Dystopian: Ex-cons learn how to evade capture. Law enforcement and enforcement capability is gutted, through lobbying.

Weird that when I think dystopian I think of a police state

Pop-culture is to blame, but it’s not the technical or full scope of the meaning.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#283

Post by juve1996 »

mabbo wrote: post #153
aqme28 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suddenly prisons are trying to incarcerate the factually innocent, since they're the least likely to "re-offend."

This is why I love HN. You've taken a really nice idea and identified exactly how it will be abused by awful people.

All ideas can be abused by awful people.

This is why we have stalled in general ; everyone has some "slippery slope" boogeyman as an excuse why we can't solve problems society faces.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#284

Post by b112 »

squokko wrote: post #242
mabbo wrote: post #81

I feel like the prison system is the victim of perverse incentives. The goal given to them is "house this person securely for a specific length of time at the lowest cost possible ". They are rewarded for cutting costs. But the total cost we pay is the cost to imprison this person the second and third time when they re-offend. It's the policing costs when they're homeless because they can't find housing or get a job.…

Prison creates absolute animals. We shouldn't put people in prison unless they're going to be there for their entire lives. Singapore-style caning is probably much better for both the convict and the broader society -- take the incorrigible violent criminals and lock them up for life without parole, and cane the rest.

Prison creates absolute animals

In US prisons I suppose. Most prisons in the world don't have shankings, or gangs, they're designed to rehabilitate, not punish.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#285

Post by SideQuark »

squokko wrote: post #242
mabbo wrote: post #81

I feel like the prison system is the victim of perverse incentives. The goal given to them is "house this person securely for a specific length of time at the lowest cost possible ". They are rewarded for cutting costs. But the total cost we pay is the cost to imprison this person the second and third time when they re-offend. It's the policing costs when they're homeless because they can't find housing or get a job.…

Prison creates absolute animals. We shouldn't put people in prison unless they're going to be there for their entire lives. Singapore-style caning is probably much better for both the convict and the broader society -- take the incorrigible violent criminals and lock them up for life without parole, and cane the rest.

US has one of the lower recidivism rates [1], so it's hard to support "Prison creates absolute animals".

[1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/recidivis...

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#286

Post by concordDance »

notch656c wrote: post #171
mabbo wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, what if the ex-con's former prison had a bond on them- if this person ends up committing a crime against your business, you get the full costs covered, less 10%. The prison would be incentivized to do this so as to help prevent recidivism. They'd also be incentivized to get that person the help they need so they don't commit crimes and can do the job too.

The reason I would be hesitant to hire the ex-con is not because they're bad. OR I think they're going to be bad to me and thus I need extra insurance or whatever. The reason I wouldn't hire them is because the system salivates to put those people back in the system, and I prefer to hire someone less likely to get pulled into the abyss at any random moment and cause me to lose out on my trained workforce. Their PO, a…

Could you explain how this conspiracy between customs agents and the prison complex came about?

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#287

Post by sacrosancty »

notch656c wrote: post #171
mabbo wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, what if the ex-con's former prison had a bond on them- if this person ends up committing a crime against your business, you get the full costs covered, less 10%. The prison would be incentivized to do this so as to help prevent recidivism. They'd also be incentivized to get that person the help they need so they don't commit crimes and can do the job too.

The reason I would be hesitant to hire the ex-con is not because they're bad. OR I think they're going to be bad to me and thus I need extra insurance or whatever. The reason I wouldn't hire them is because the system salivates to put those people back in the system, and I prefer to hire someone less likely to get pulled into the abyss at any random moment and cause me to lose out on my trained workforce. Their PO, a…

[dead]

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#288

Post by angelgonzales »

ROTMetro wrote: post #103

Guess where prisoners get all those books they read? From family in the mail. Guess how they stay in touch with what is going on in the world. With magazine and newspapers. Oh, they are replacing that with free tablets? That is so nice. Wait... those tablets charge a per minute usage fee? Ah. They are free to have, but not to use. And of course, you have to pay EACH TIME you want to read the same book over on them, a…

I understand your point - prisons want to exploit prisoners and their families for profit by brokering imports into their facilities. I also think that many people who have bleeding hearts for these criminals and their families haven’t been direct victims of crimes themselves. Often these criminals are terrible people who act horrifically and with malice but act so sorry for themselves when they’re caught and on trial. Their families usually only care for the criminal they’re related to and never to the victims no matter that the criminal did. I don’t see families of criminals giving money to the victim of the criminal, do you? Sometimes the families and cultural influence are factors that attribute to a criminal’s motivation to commit a crime. Trust me, I’ve been there! Finding the balance of incentives not to commit crime is difficult because crimes are often committed by violent people who do not respond strongly to logical or legal reasoning but respond somewhat to force and fear. The key, I think, is providing people with resources and care far before they’re at the age where they usually commit crimes. There’s also something to consider about the western and eastern views of individualism. An eastern view might consider this prisoner as a component of their family or their community.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#289

Post by notch656c »

concordDance wrote: post #286
notch656c wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason I would be hesitant to hire the ex-con is not because they're bad. OR I think they're going to be bad to me and thus I need extra insurance or whatever. The reason I wouldn't hire them is because the system salivates to put those people back in the system, and I prefer to hire someone less likely to get pulled into the abyss at any random moment and cause me to lose out on my trained workforce. Their PO, a…

Could you explain how this conspiracy between customs agents and the prison complex came about?

I was flagged on suspicion of being a criminal and now customs invents absurd shit every time I cross the border. Last time they got a federal search warrant out of thin air based on lies and dragged me to a hospital to internally search me for drugs. Every single time I go through it's something else with hours long detainment. They explicitly told me one one occasion if I was a felon they would fuck with me even more than they have.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#290

Post by kelseyfrog »

NeuNeurosis wrote: post #277
kelseyfrog wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it sounds wrong, but the same goes for guns, drugs, and just about anything else illegal. If it's banned, it's just pushed underground where it can't be regulated at all. Besides, if there isn't a market for child-imprisonment, then we won't be able to accurately price it as a commodity. Not being able to price commodified child-imprisonment means the market for it will be much more inefficient than it needs t…

Wow what a horribly worded idea. I can't tell if you are trolling everyone or if you are a diehard libertarian capitalist. The implications from your suggestion would imply that regulating behavior outside of markets has never existed in the lifespan of the human race. I agree incentives are what regulate behavior but leaping from child-imprisionment is bad to we should make it legal and efficient is the only/best/re…

Ideally, moral value would be signaled by market-based price discovery. Economic progress is one of creating markets for more things, not fewer. Markets for some things but not others reeks of special pleading.
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