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NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

theintercept.com

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Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#201

Post by KMag »

mabbo wrote: post #188
KMag wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a theologian, but my understanding is that 5-point Calvinism actually claims all people are bad (total depravity of Man) and that Christians shouldn't think they're better than other people, since it's not the person's choice if they believe in God or not (irresistible grace). Though, maybe in practice Calvinism deviates from theory.

Specifically, the concept I'm referring to is Predestination[0], or the more extreme version 'Double predestination', wherein God pre-ordained who the Good people are and who the Bad people are, and you know you're the Good people because bad things aren't happening to you, and you know that that person must be a Bad person because bad things happen to them. If you're born to a wealthy privileged life, this belief sa…

Again, I'm not a theologian, but this sounds like some mixture of predestination and prosperity gospel, not merely predestination. Most of Jesus's most influential early followers were hunted down and tortured by the Roman authorities, which wouldn't seem to jive with the proposed criteria.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#202

Post by VMG »

_trampeltier wrote: post #145
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going a step further, we can reduce costs by funding social services that help prevent people from ending up in prison in the first place. I agree with your assessment of our Calvinist thinking.

In Germany are about 1/3 people in prison because they used a train or bus without ticket. If you can't pay you will end up in prison. Imagine how much money this does cost.

This seems like a made up number. This article here states that it is at most 10% of all people even in that category of crime in Bavaria https://netzpolitik.org/2022/datenluecke-wie-viele-menschen-...

The category being "Ersatzfreiheitsstrafe" (imprisonment for failure to pay a fine)

Do you have a source for your claim?

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#203

Post by visarga »

mabbo wrote: post #153
aqme28 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suddenly prisons are trying to incarcerate the factually innocent, since they're the least likely to "re-offend."

This is why I love HN. You've taken a really nice idea and identified exactly how it will be abused by awful people.

Oh, not just the parent poster. It was also my first thought.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#204

Post by glial »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #185
scrollaway wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But prisons don’t incarcerate people? They aren’t the ones taking decisions on who goes in there.

That's why the judicial-prison economy developed - to establish a financial relation between the two. We know it as "kids for cash"[1] and judges can make "millions of dollars" in payments from private facilities. Outlawing such arrangements only pushes the blackmarket economy of kids for cash underground. Instead, of course, it should be regulated. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

Maybe I'm missing something but it seems downright wrong for judges to have any financial incentive for ANY decision they make. Why would that be something we want to regulate? Seems like a judge should lose their position if they have a conflict of interest and rule anyway.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#205

Post by dymk »

VMG wrote: post #202
_trampeltier wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany are about 1/3 people in prison because they used a train or bus without ticket. If you can't pay you will end up in prison. Imagine how much money this does cost.

This seems like a made up number. This article here states that it is at most 10% of all people even in that category of crime in Bavaria https://netzpolitik.org/2022/datenluecke-wie-viele-menschen-... The category being "Ersatzfreiheitsstrafe" (imprisonment for failure to pay a fine) Do you have a source for your claim?

If your numbers are true, and 10% of the prison population consists of people who didn't pay their bus fare, that is egregious

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#206

Post by notch656c »

LatteLazy wrote: post #130
MSFT_Edging wrote: post #6

I'm sure reducing prisoner contact with loved ones will surely reduce crime! /s

I mean, to be cynical: those friends and family didn't stop them committing (serious) crimes in the first place. Maybe prison SHOULD be time for a clean break with bad influences...

Your comment is unpopular but in some ways it's probably right. I think family, indirectly, forces a lot of crime. Once you have kids to feed the desperation is real. You may be able to support yourself on minimum wage but add a kid or two into the mix and no real skills and the result is having a family results in crime. Toss a court order for child support on top of that, and hey it's go to jail for non-payment or go to jail for theft or whatever -- at least the theft charge has a definite ending whereas child support they can chase you literally forever for that.

When I look at peak imprisonment rates it corresponds pretty well to when men are at max pressure to provide for dependents. Most of us wouldn't hurt someone else for our own good even if starving but look your starving kid in the face and the question becomes more difficult and theoretical about morality and risk of getting caught may go out the window.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#207

Post by hospadar »

My brilliant plan to create prison reform:

Every time the state wants to force a human being into a locked cage, they need to find a volunteer to be locked in a cage for the same amount of time as the person being involuntarily locked away. The forcibly imprisoned and voluntarily imprisoned must be imprisoned in the same facility, but are not informed who their imprisoned partner is.

The volunteer cannot be paid for their service, they must elect to do it because of their glowing sense of civic duty.

Prison guards may not have any access to information about whether or not an imprisoned person is a convicted offender or volunteer. Upon going in, volunteers must post a bond equal to 10% of their total wealth. If they disclose to any prison employee that they are a volunteer, they are discharged from prison immediately (a new volunteer must be found, if one is not available, the forcibly imprisoned person is discharged immediately) and forfeit the bond. 90% of the forfeited bond will go to the imprisoned person they are volunteering for, 10% of the bond will go to the prison employee that they disclosed to (as a reward for the employee reporting their serious offense).

Bonus points: The volunteer must be sourced from the inverse wealth percentile as the potential involuntary prisoner (i.e. if you want to lock up someone from the bottom 10th percentile of wealth, you must find a prison volunteer from the top 90th percentile of wealth).

Since prisons are such a wonderful peaceful place where troubled folks are taken care of and rehabilitated (couldn't we all use some quiet time for reflection?), finding plenty of volunteers should be no problem. I am certain that many wealthy scions of public society will volunteer for life imprisonment due to their great concern for civil society.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#208

Post by kelseyfrog »

glial wrote: post #204
kelseyfrog wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why the judicial-prison economy developed - to establish a financial relation between the two. We know it as "kids for cash"[1] and judges can make "millions of dollars" in payments from private facilities. Outlawing such arrangements only pushes the blackmarket economy of kids for cash underground. Instead, of course, it should be regulated. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

Maybe I'm missing something but it seems downright wrong for judges to have any financial incentive for ANY decision they make. Why would that be something we want to regulate? Seems like a judge should lose their position if they have a conflict of interest and rule anyway.

I know it sounds wrong, but the same goes for guns, drugs, and just about anything else illegal. If it's banned, it's just pushed underground where it can't be regulated at all.

Besides, if there isn't a market for child-imprisonment, then we won't be able to accurately price it as a commodity. Not being able to price commodified child-imprisonment means the market for it will be much more inefficient than it needs to be. Efficient markets imply positive public good. It's really that simple.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#209

Post by generj »

indymike wrote: post #148
D13Fd wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The OP is talking about why these kinds of things exist. No they are not: >jails are powerful in all the wrong ways. . . . This is what corrupted power looks like. . . . Police departments are often the same. The article talks about prisons scanning mail. The OP then says that prisons are corrupt, then throws in that by the way, police departments are too. OP's opinion about police department corruption has nothing…

In the US a large number of incarceration facilities are ran by the county police (otherwise known as the Sheriff's department).

Even worse, in some jurisdictions the incoming pipeline for hires routes through running the jail or prisons.

The mindset behind being a good cop and a good prison guard are totally different. Exposing hires to the corruption and violence inside prisons right before sending them to police the streets creates a very adversarial mindset against the public.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#210

Post by VMG »

dymk wrote: post #205
VMG wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a made up number. This article here states that it is at most 10% of all people even in that category of crime in Bavaria https://netzpolitik.org/2022/datenluecke-wie-viele-menschen-... The category being "Ersatzfreiheitsstrafe" (imprisonment for failure to pay a fine) Do you have a source for your claim?

If your numbers are true, and 10% of the prison population consists of people who didn't pay their bus fare, that is egregious

The 10% are in the category of "Ersatzfreiheitsstrafe" which are is "imprisonment for failure to pay a fine"

The article is about the lack of more fine-grained data in that category

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