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Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

theatlanticwire.com

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Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#121

Post by JonnieCache »

philwelch wrote: post #101
mrlase wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, China hasn't really been 'communist' since the days of Mao. To expand on what you said, here's an article from 12 years ago (that's getting incredibly weird to say) about China opening up to private enterprise: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/591841.stm . I think most would agree that China is now considered a "socialist market economy [with Chinese characteristics]" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist…

> I think most would agree that China is now considered a "socialist market economy [with Chinese characteristics]" In other words, less "USSR", more"Sweden without elections"?

More china.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#122

Post by neilk »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #56

Lots of conflicting thoughts here. It seems pretty clear that the workers think that their working conditions are unjust. Further, they apparently would be OK with those conditions if they got more money. That suggests they don't consider them inhumane, (not justified regardless of pay) rather they are economically unjust. The truth of whether or not they are economically unjust (in a market driven economy, which Chi…

> It seems pretty clear that the workers think that their working conditions are unjust. Further, they apparently would be OK with those conditions if they got more money.

I don't think that's what happened. Both the Atlantic and the "Want China Times" article say that the mass suicide threat happened after FoxConn didn't pay compensation to the employees who quit. So that seems more about human dignity, not just angling for a raise.

But the story says that employees staged the suicide threat, which confuses me. It's not clear to me if this was a move in sympathy to their former co-workers, or if those ex-employees somehow regained access to the building, or if the ones who tried to quit didn't succeed because FoxConn refused to let them out of their contracts or something.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#123

Post by Dylan16807 »

Volpe wrote: post #117

Wow this comment thread is depressing. Anyone who can't see the exploitation in this has their head in the sand. If you are paying/treating people less (in value) than what they contribute (in value) back to you, you are exploiting them. Simple as that. Apple have taken to boasting how great their profit margins are, another way to look at that, is to say they are boasting at how well they can exploit others (supplie…

That is a terrible definition of exploitation. You're saying that even a single dollar of profit qualifies.

How are you even defining value? What if I like bananas more than shirts and you the opposite? Do we somehow exploit each other when we trade?

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#124

Post by Volpe »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #123
Volpe wrote: post #117

Wow this comment thread is depressing. Anyone who can't see the exploitation in this has their head in the sand. If you are paying/treating people less (in value) than what they contribute (in value) back to you, you are exploiting them. Simple as that. Apple have taken to boasting how great their profit margins are, another way to look at that, is to say they are boasting at how well they can exploit others (supplie…

That is a terrible definition of exploitation. You're saying that even a single dollar of profit qualifies. How are you even defining value? What if I like bananas more than shirts and you the opposite? Do we somehow exploit each other when we trade?

how do you justify profit not qualifying?

bananas and shirts have an intrinsic value, it isn't subjective, they cost X to produce/ship, that's their value. The rest is exploitation.

Of course, a pro-capitalist isn't going to like this line of thinking, as it is explicitly anti-capitalism.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#125

Post by drumdance »

jhuni wrote: post #109
ChuckMcM wrote: post #56

Lots of conflicting thoughts here. It seems pretty clear that the workers think that their working conditions are unjust. Further, they apparently would be OK with those conditions if they got more money. That suggests they don't consider them inhumane, (not justified regardless of pay) rather they are economically unjust. The truth of whether or not they are economically unjust (in a market driven economy, which Chi…

Saying that their other option is to 'starve' seems improbable in a country that is based on the communist teachings of Mao and Marx. Chinese policy is based upon the teachings of the capitalist roader Deng Xiaoping. Go into a Chinese bookstore and you will find his writings not things by Mao or Marx. There isn't any sense in which China is communist. How could the working class be in control of the society, when the…

You mean "communism." Has there ever been a single nominally communist state where the working class was any more than the horse in Animal Farm?

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#126

Post by TylerE »

nik_0_0 wrote: post #64
philwelch wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few decades ago, buying anything made in Korea or Japan was fraught with the same moral dilemma. Until we bought so much stuff from Korea and Japan that Korea and Japan turned into rich countries. You could buy stuff that was made in America, but crack open a history book sometime--this was how America became a rich country, too.

I'm the first to admit I'm quite ignorant of my own history, let alone the economic history of Korea and Japan, but surely you aren't suggesting that if we keep buying stuff from China they will turn into a rich country and magically increase the working conditions?

It's actually already happened. Most of the really nasty stuff (electronics recycling, sweatshops, etc) is now happening in places like Bengal and Sub-saharan Africa.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#127

Post by drumdance »

maratd wrote: post #86
ugh wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It’s exploitation, pure and simple. It might be better than the alternatives but it’s still exploitation. I simply cannot comprehend how you cannot have empathy in such a situation. Industrialization – over the course of more than one century – led to a more prosperous, just and healthier society in many western nations. That doesn’t negate the millions of workers who were exploited along the way.

> It’s exploitation, pure and simple. One party can't exploit another without the threat or use of force. If no threat of force is present, then the relationship is voluntary and both parties should accept responsibility for participating in it. > It might be better than the alternatives but it’s still exploitation. If a man one thousand years from the future came to visit you , he may very well consider your standar…

At Foxconn and other large factories in China, you don't just get a paycheck, you get a place to live, food to eat etc. They even have you do morning calisthenics like in the military.

To lose your job there is to immediately become homeless.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#128

Post by drumdance »

ars wrote: post #103
jmathes wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is business. ... Let them hash it out. When is a disagreement not business? Why should we be unwilling to take sides in a negotiating even when it is "business?" When a person's negotiating position is so bad that they use suicide to opt out, I feel sympathy, and I suspect that humanity might me better off if their position were improved by non-capitalist intervention of some kind.

That's called the "Fallacy of the excluded middle", or a "False dilemma". They don't have to suicide. They can also quit and work somewhere else.

Do you really think that hasn't occurred to them?

When's the last time you fel the need to threaten someone with suicide? My guess is never. In that case, can you begin to imagine how desperate someone must feel if this strikes him as a viable option?

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#129

Post by drumdance »

zasz wrote: post #106
philwelch wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuinely suicidal people don't threaten to commit suicide, they just do it. These people tipped their hand by coming off the roof without Foxconn conceding to their demands. If idle threats to commit suicide are a surefire indication that someone's being mistreated, then millions of teenage ex-boyfriends and ex-girlfriends are mistreated, too. Threatening to jump off a building shows even less conviction than a genu…

Not everyone who is suicidal does so because they are mentally ill. People kill themselves for political causes, too. It's kind of a thing for monks to set themselves on fire as a means of political protest. Source: http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/10/world/asia/tibet-march/index.h... Also, Gandhi went on hunger strikes.

Not to mention the Arab Spring.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#130

Post by drumdance »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #44
zasz wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, let me see if I got this straight. Foxconn workers are picking between two shitty jobs. Job A is worse than Job B. Job A is so bad that they are threatening to commit suicide. What kind of choice is this?

It's one option more than they would have without Foxconn. If these workers were subsistence farmers back in rural China, with earnings This is why prosperity often results in unrest.

And unrest often leads to political change.
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