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Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

theatlanticwire.com

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Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#111

Post by ChuckMcM »

gerggerg wrote: post #100
ChuckMcM wrote: post #56

Lots of conflicting thoughts here. It seems pretty clear that the workers think that their working conditions are unjust. Further, they apparently would be OK with those conditions if they got more money. That suggests they don't consider them inhumane, (not justified regardless of pay) rather they are economically unjust. The truth of whether or not they are economically unjust (in a market driven economy, which Chi…

I don't agree. First, education levels among Foxconn employees are probably considerably lower than you can imagine. These people just don't fully understand how inhumane their jobs are or the lasting effects of the chemicals they work with and are probably directly lied to about it. Second they may already be owed money by Foxconn for overtime, healthcare, regular wages etc. and can't just outright quit out of fear…

I completely relate to the emotion, in California we've had folks like Caesar Chavez organize to overthrow the exploitation of immigrant farm workers.

I'm saying that the article says they want more money. I'm sure there are lots of other things they want too but as I mentioned its very dangerous to assume anything when dealing with a culture and political climate that is so very different from one you are in or grew up in.

You point out that "Third there's a never ending supply of new workers, ..." That is, unfortunately, the economic force that is allowing these conditions to persist.

It suggests that one way to put pressure on Foxconn would be to cut off that supply through education and outreach to the people immigrating from the rural areas but I have no idea how that might be accomplished.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#112

Post by jhuni »

Tycho wrote: post #88
jhuni wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China has been blatantly capitalist since the economic reforms of Deng Xiaoping, similar to the USSR after the 1965 economic reform. Don't fool yourself - China is capitalist. It is capitalist regardless of what its leadership claims or the extent to which it uses state mechanisms or market mechanisms.

It lacks the individual/property rights that underpin true capitalism. I think we should invent a new word for it, like 'marketism' or something.

Capitalism comes in many forms. I am not sure any of them are "true."

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#113

Post by donnawarellp »

I wonder how much an iPhone would cost if it was manufactured in a way that actually adhered to all of the "standards and laws" applicable in the US? It would be interesting to see the result of such a study. It would be a way of finding out how committed someone was to the ideals of environmental and fair labor practices: here is a phone that abuses people and the environment for $200 and here is one that respects the worker and the environment $400 (or whatever the number might be). Interesting to know how many people would pick one or the other?

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#114

Post by nextparadigms »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #56

Lots of conflicting thoughts here. It seems pretty clear that the workers think that their working conditions are unjust. Further, they apparently would be OK with those conditions if they got more money. That suggests they don't consider them inhumane, (not justified regardless of pay) rather they are economically unjust. The truth of whether or not they are economically unjust (in a market driven economy, which Chi…

I don't think Foxxcon cares all that much about lost positions. They have this incoming:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cjo4AsTVh0s

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#115

Post by TDL »

Tycho wrote: post #88
jhuni wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China has been blatantly capitalist since the economic reforms of Deng Xiaoping, similar to the USSR after the 1965 economic reform. Don't fool yourself - China is capitalist. It is capitalist regardless of what its leadership claims or the extent to which it uses state mechanisms or market mechanisms.

It lacks the individual/property rights that underpin true capitalism. I think we should invent a new word for it, like 'marketism' or something.

Mercantilism with Chinese characteristics maybe? The Chinese economy seems much more mercantilistic to me at this point in time than anything else.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#116

Post by TDL »

louislouis wrote: post #55
pjkundert wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me get this straight: you are using one of the most ruthless [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_trade ] command economies in the world as an example of the ills of Capitalism?

I'm not just talking about China. It really doesn't matter which country the factories are in. The poor will always get exploited. Be it child labour in India or Indonesia, or closing of GM Flint Michigan. Exploitation of the poor is at the root of capitalism if you think about it from a basic level. It's all about making profit, and for that you need cheap labour provided by the poor, globalization provides an abund…

How is the closing of an unprofitable manufacturing facility exploitation?

Cheap labor is not the only source of profit. Many companies employ only highly compensated individuals to create products & services that they sell profitably.

The root of capitalism is private property rights & the right to voluntarily exchange goods & services.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#117

Post by Volpe »

Wow this comment thread is depressing.

Anyone who can't see the exploitation in this has their head in the sand.

If you are paying/treating people less (in value) than what they contribute (in value) back to you, you are exploiting them. Simple as that.

Apple have taken to boasting how great their profit margins are, another way to look at that, is to say they are boasting at how well they can exploit others (suppliers and consumers).

Seriously, stop rationalising that your iDevice/Android is a moral device, it isn't in a utilitarian, or deontological sense, by any stretch. Only some weak relativistic point of view can justify it. But that's what helps people sleep at night, so we all just hover around there.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#118

Post by gerggerg »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #111
gerggerg wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree. First, education levels among Foxconn employees are probably considerably lower than you can imagine. These people just don't fully understand how inhumane their jobs are or the lasting effects of the chemicals they work with and are probably directly lied to about it. Second they may already be owed money by Foxconn for overtime, healthcare, regular wages etc. and can't just outright quit out of fear…

I completely relate to the emotion, in California we've had folks like Caesar Chavez organize to overthrow the exploitation of immigrant farm workers. I'm saying that the article says they want more money. I'm sure there are lots of other things they want too but as I mentioned its very dangerous to assume anything when dealing with a culture and political climate that is so very different from one you are in or grew…

I agree that a long term strategy for improving working conditions involves access to quality education but I don't think that pertains to the issue being discussed nor is it very helpful to the people described in the article. The sad fact is these people are living their lives now and have virtually no bargaining power now. So they've taken to following the example set by the desperate measures of their former co-workers as a last ditch effort to eek out a fight. Perhaps the mass suicide was dis-genuine and they just wanted media attention. This to me is an indicator of what they feel they have to do to get a semblance of justice. Or that they genuinely have no idea how to stand up to their employer. An employer, mind you, that requires them to sign a contract stating that they will not commit suicide on the job. Think about that. Where would you be if you got paid $2 an hour to stand on your feet for 12 hours a day working with toxic chemicals without proper safety measures, having had signed a contract stating you wouldn't commit suicide, with no legal right to organize coworkers to even discuss how to improve working conditions, and don't have enough education to understand any of it other than your legs hurt, your hands won't stop shaking, and you haven't yet received any money for that overtime you put in to make electronics you'll never see people in your own country using.

wages: http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/06/06/us-foxconn-china-i...

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#119

Post by moocow01 »

Very sad.

I think this should be seen as a case for why robotic automation should be encouraged wherever and whenever possible. There tends to be an undertone of fear when we talk about automation - fear that robots and technology are going to eliminate everyone's job. Lets also consider that certain jobs out there are not suitable or healthy for breathing, thinking, creative, unique humans (which we all are) to be doing.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#120

Post by siculars »

moocow01 wrote: post #119

Very sad. I think this should be seen as a case for why robotic automation should be encouraged wherever and whenever possible. There tends to be an undertone of fear when we talk about automation - fear that robots and technology are going to eliminate everyone's job. Lets also consider that certain jobs out there are not suitable or healthy for breathing, thinking, creative, unique humans (which we all are) to be d…

True, to a point. But I would also say that there should just be better working conditions, better pay, more vacation and better benefits.
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