Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What happened with the substation attack in North Carolina?

practical.engineering

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 259 posts

Re: What happened with the substation attack in North Carolina?

#241

Post by mrtesthah »

yucky wrote: post #236
mrtesthah wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is pretending that "the government is run by white supremacists"? If you're referring to my statement, I only said that many law enforcement agencies contain white supremacists, which includes anyone with a white supremacist viewpoint . They don't even need to identify as one openly or even in action. How many white supremacists are and are not anti-government is immaterial to the point. The way you're using the…

> Do you think it is somehow "anti-white" to point out ways in which white supremacy harms and oppresses non-white people when it is used at the level of state and federal governments? It can be. Take your example for instance, where you said: > "As for whether US itself is a white supremacist state, on one hand you could say that it has allocated a massive amount of resources in systematically rounding up black men…

At the state level, the rate of incarceration for black americans is about 5 times higher than for white americans. This report fully breaks it down by state and by ethnicity, and offers policy solutions:

https://www.sentencingproject.org/app/uploads/2022/08/The-Co...

Given that black people are not a large percentage of the population, this disparity is shocking and significant. If we deliberately choose not to point out these problems then it won't be possible to correct them at a social policy level. If we chose to focus only on "males" as the targeted demographic then we would overlook a lot of the systemic injustices and socio-economic circumstances that black males face exclusively, and which would require disproportionate attention to solve. It is neither right nor just that black men should bear such an unequal burden.

Moreover, pointing out injustice done to black americans does not "dismiss the millions of non-black victims". I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. There is more than enough room in the sphere of public debate to discuss all aspects of mass incarceration.

The argument you're making sounds almost exactly like "all houses matter".

https://twitter.com/_dpiddy/status/1266907284178759680/photo...

Re: What happened with the substation attack in North Carolina?

#242

Post by mikrotikker »

canucklady wrote: post #197
mikrotikker wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about OSS Sabotage Manual that was declassified. Then you think about all the infrastructure attacks and it looks similar to how the manual describes to do sabotage. KGB sleeper cells still doing their thing? Or American communists dreaming they are fighting facism when in fact they are inviting it in.

There are communists who believe in accelerationism as much as there are white supremacists who believe in it. Basically "destabilize the current status quo to provoke an outright war, and then we win that war and take over".

Yea its scary because communists normally pave the way for the fascists. No matter who wins we all lose.

Re: What happened with the substation attack in North Carolina?

#243

Post by lelanthran »

mrtesthah wrote: post #237
lelanthran wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I said white supremacist violence, but you took that to mean terrorist killings, which is a small subset of that violence. No, I specified "causes of deaths/injury of minorities" > But making factual statements doesn't require anyone to agree with me. Neither does making non-factual statements. What's your point? (Here's a factual statement for you - the threat from white supremacists against minorities is so low i…

I don't see where I used the word "ignorant". Yes, obviously by statistical cause of death, terrorism will always be a rounding error. However, the goal of terror is always psychological -- to create a culture of fear in which people are afraid to participate in society. That, in combination with law enforcement insufficiently targeting white supremacist organizing, is primarily an issue of social and racial justice.…

> I don't see where I used the word "ignorant".

Maybe english is not your first language, but this quote of your literally means "ignorant of ..."

>>>>> Because you're choosing to ignore the growing threat of white supremacist violence to minorities all over the country,

That's where the word ignorant comes from.

> Yes, obviously by statistical cause of death, terrorism will always be a rounding error. However, the goal of terror is always psychological -- to create a culture of fear in which people are afraid to participate in society.

This is all way too subjective, and therefore not actionable. We cannot (and should not) exact punitive measures based on what other people feel.

We take legal action against perpetrators based on the crimes commit, not what crimes we think they may commit in the future.

All those harassment, abuse, whatever you said above, that's legally actionable and I urge anyone, no matter their skin color, on the receiving end of crimes to report the matter and legally pursue it.

> That, in combination with law enforcement insufficiently targeting white supremacist organizing, is primarily an issue of social and racial justice.

What do you want them arrested for? Being in a white supremacist group is not, last I checked, illegal in and of itself.

> Simply, it's unfair to expect demographic groups which collectively comprise half of the country to put up with this mess.

The "mess" is in your mind. You are in a minority amongst minorities.

Do you not also think that it is unfair to urge measures be taken against people who have committed no crime?

Re: What happened with the substation attack in North Carolina?

#244

Post by mrtesthah »

lelanthran wrote: post #243
mrtesthah wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see where I used the word "ignorant". Yes, obviously by statistical cause of death, terrorism will always be a rounding error. However, the goal of terror is always psychological -- to create a culture of fear in which people are afraid to participate in society. That, in combination with law enforcement insufficiently targeting white supremacist organizing, is primarily an issue of social and racial justice.…

> I don't see where I used the word "ignorant". Maybe english is not your first language, but this quote of your literally means "ignorant of ..." >>>>> Because you're choosing to ignore the growing threat of white supremacist violence to minorities all over the country, That's where the word ignorant comes from. > Yes, obviously by statistical cause of death, terrorism will always be a rounding error. However, the g…

>We take legal action against perpetrators based on the crimes commit, not what crimes we think they may commit in the future.

The US legal code includes many crimes of conspiracy, especially for terrorism. That is in fact how most terrorists are caught. Most white supremacist organizing falls under this category.

We don't allow ISIS recruiters to use social media, but white supremacists have their own dedicated social network servers (e.g., Gab). We don't allow terror training camps, but white supremacist militias gather openly to practice their technique. The FBI regularly sends undercover agents into the mosques of middle class middle eastern neighborhoods to make sure people there aren't being taught radical Islam, but it's virtually expected for rural christian churches to preach reactionary hate. You can see these ideas on mainstream television, even. https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=Hk-TLXKlubk

And no, especially after Jan 6th, I am most certainly not in the "minority of minorities" here.

There's absolutely a double standard applied and their continued recruitment and armament is a threat to democracy and a peaceful society.

Re: What happened with the substation attack in North Carolina?

#245

Post by deadly_syn »

mrtesthah wrote: post #229
lelanthran wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I mean sure, as long as you’re a white christian man, I'm not. Well, at least you got one out of three. People like you are annoying people like me, especially when you pretend that you are talking on behalf of me.

Because you're choosing to ignore the growing threat of white supremacist violence to minorities all over the country, I couldn't see any other reason you'd have to do that. There have been many mass shootings targeted at them already. But I'm not talking on behalf of you, I'm talking on behalf of myself , because I am a member of one of these many groups which are targeted.

How arrogant do you have to be to tell somene what they should be worried about. Especially when they literally alrady siad they dont buy your boogeyman.

Re: What happened with the substation attack in North Carolina?

#246

Post by yucky »

mrtesthah wrote: post #241
yucky wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think it is somehow "anti-white" to point out ways in which white supremacy harms and oppresses non-white people when it is used at the level of state and federal governments? It can be. Take your example for instance, where you said: > "As for whether US itself is a white supremacist state, on one hand you could say that it has allocated a massive amount of resources in systematically rounding up black men…

At the state level, the rate of incarceration for black americans is about 5 times higher than for white americans. This report fully breaks it down by state and by ethnicity, and offers policy solutions: https://www.sentencingproject.org/app/uploads/2022/08/The-Co... Given that black people are not a large percentage of the population, this disparity is shocking and significant. If we deliberately choose not to poin…

And whites are locked up at a shockingly higher rate than asians are. Men are locked up at shockingly higher rates than women are. So do we blame Asian supremacy or female supremacy for that? Or is it possible not all demographic groups commit crimes at the same rate?

Re: What happened with the substation attack in North Carolina?

#247

Post by mrtesthah »

yucky wrote: post #246
mrtesthah wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the state level, the rate of incarceration for black americans is about 5 times higher than for white americans. This report fully breaks it down by state and by ethnicity, and offers policy solutions: https://www.sentencingproject.org/app/uploads/2022/08/The-Co... Given that black people are not a large percentage of the population, this disparity is shocking and significant. If we deliberately choose not to poin…

And whites are locked up at a shockingly higher rate than asians are. Men are locked up at shockingly higher rates than women are. So do we blame Asian supremacy or female supremacy for that? Or is it possible not all demographic groups commit crimes at the same rate?

What do you think is the reason that races commit crimes at different rates? Do you think that black people are inherently more criminal?

You can read The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander if you truly have a good faith desire to understand the racist legacy behind mass incarceration in the US.

https://newjimcrow.com/

Ultimately you need to recognize that race is a social construct, and white supremacy is a phenomenon of in-group vs out-group power dynamics. Right now the group that holds political and economic power in the US is called “white”, which is otherwise a biologically meaningless designation and more of a cultural and class based category that was invented about 100 years ago. The more similar a particular demographic group appears along the axes of skin color, class, and culture, the less racially stigmatized they’ll be, the more economic opportunities they’ll have, and the less they’ll need to resort to grey or black market activity in order to survive. There is also the long legacy of slavery, indentured servitude, and jim crow era oppression that has selectively deprived black people in the US of economic opportunities for generations.

If you want to draw conclusions on aggregate statistics of the actions of human beings, then you need to be willing to educate yourself as to the social, economic, and historical factors which influence their actions.

Re: What happened with the substation attack in North Carolina?

#248

Post by yucky »

mrtesthah wrote: post #247
yucky wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And whites are locked up at a shockingly higher rate than asians are. Men are locked up at shockingly higher rates than women are. So do we blame Asian supremacy or female supremacy for that? Or is it possible not all demographic groups commit crimes at the same rate?

What do you think is the reason that races commit crimes at different rates? Do you think that black people are inherently more criminal? You can read The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander if you truly have a good faith desire to understand the racist legacy behind mass incarceration in the US. https://newjimcrow.com/ Ultimately you need to recognize that race is a social construct, and white supremacy is a phenomen…

There is an easy way to test this. Considering all of the systemic racial preferences in place, would you rather be white or black (same skills & qualifications) if you're interviewing for a job at a Fortune 500 employer? Applying to Harvard Law school? Seeking a government contract?

Racial differences in performance in something is not proof of discrimination. Unless you're ready to show me how the NBA systemically excludes non-black players.

It's also interesting that in this so-called system of white supremacy, that asians somehow lead in almost every metric related to income, education, crime etc.

Re: What happened with the substation attack in North Carolina?

#249

Post by mrtesthah »

yucky wrote: post #248
mrtesthah wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think is the reason that races commit crimes at different rates? Do you think that black people are inherently more criminal? You can read The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander if you truly have a good faith desire to understand the racist legacy behind mass incarceration in the US. https://newjimcrow.com/ Ultimately you need to recognize that race is a social construct, and white supremacy is a phenomen…

There is an easy way to test this. Considering all of the systemic racial preferences in place, would you rather be white or black (same skills & qualifications) if you're interviewing for a job at a Fortune 500 employer? Applying to Harvard Law school? Seeking a government contract? Racial differences in performance in something is not proof of discrimination. Unless you're ready to show me how the NBA systemically…

I would much rather be white in applying to any of those things. It’s a pretty obvious choice.

BLACK AND WHITE: ACCESS TO CAPITAL AMONG MINORITY-OWNED STARTUPS https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w28154/w281...

Job Applicants With ‘Black Names’ Still Less Likely to Get Interviews https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-29/job-appli...

As to your comment about asians, my last reply already explained in great detail why you can expect to see socio-economic differences in class.

Re: What happened with the substation attack in North Carolina?

#250

Post by yucky »

mrtesthah wrote: post #249
yucky wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an easy way to test this. Considering all of the systemic racial preferences in place, would you rather be white or black (same skills & qualifications) if you're interviewing for a job at a Fortune 500 employer? Applying to Harvard Law school? Seeking a government contract? Racial differences in performance in something is not proof of discrimination. Unless you're ready to show me how the NBA systemically…

I would much rather be white in applying to any of those things. It’s a pretty obvious choice. BLACK AND WHITE: ACCESS TO CAPITAL AMONG MINORITY-OWNED STARTUPS https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w28154/w281... Job Applicants With ‘Black Names’ Still Less Likely to Get Interviews https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-29/job-appli... As to your comment about asians, my last reply already explain…

Fascinating that despite the fact that DEI initiatives would give you a huge advantage you still wouldn't want to be black. I guess that says something.

And FYI that names study has been debunked a number of times. They didn't test stereotypically low class white names like Wilbur, Billy Bob, Roscoe, Harlan etc. for males or Crystal, Daisy, etc. for females.

Post reply on HN