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Tweetbot. April 2011 – January 2023

tapbots.com

331–340 of 427 posts

Re: Tweetbot. April 2011 – January 2023

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been on the fediverse for years and while I enjoy it, I think it's naive to think it'll replace Twitter. Fundamentally it lacks good discovery, features take too long to implement (or simply can't be implemented), and verification is impossible without setting up your own server which seems like too much overhead imo. Further it just doesn't scale, although Andrew Torba was never known for his coding ability the…

I don't know what it even means for this to "scale". I think people right now are hung up on Mastodon-the-social-network, the way it's been principally used until fairly recently, where people share servers and servers have a discernible culture, moderation, rules, community, that kind of thing. I don't think that's going to last long at all. The Mastodon that stands a very good chance of killing Twitter is Mastodon-…

Everyone is approaching the social media issue as if it was a technical problem - it's not. No amount of decentralisation or protocols address (or even attempt) the root cause. The closest would be the crypto-based social networks, which while they have their own problems at least attempt to address the issue of funding the platform. You know it's bad when the closest thing to a solution comes from crypto grifters. Same issue with the rest of the "alternative" world, whether it's OSes or software. Lots of time spent on technicalities or ideologies, zero time spent on addressing the actual problem - that's why the "year of the Linux desktop" is still a recurring joke.

The problem with social media right now is the lack of a non-adversarial, sustainable business model. All these changes stem from the fact that advertising-based business models are on their last legs and are fundamentally flawed because they are adversarial to the users - the Twitter API shutdown is at least partly because they want to drive everyone to use the official client where it's easier to impose user-hostile functionality.

Decentralisation merely side-steps this problem which works on a very small scale but not only will break down at a larger scale (operating a social media platform costs money) but also brings a lot of its own issues. Part of the appeal of a social media platform is its popularity, network effects and a sense of community where most people are happy with or at least tolerate the rules and moderation policy.

A Mastodon-powered future will have 2 outcomes:

1) every instance federates with everyone and the entire thing becomes flooded with spam and other unsavoury (or outright illegal, at least in some jurisdictions) content because there is no common moderation policy. Users eventually get fed up and leave to a centralised competitor.

2) instances federate on a case-by-case basis which fundamentally breaks network effects and makes global conversation and community building impossible. Good luck explaining to non-technical users why they can't see/interact with the same posts as their friends because they happen to be on different instances that don't federate with each other, or because the content they both want to see is on a separate instance that doesn't federate with theirs. Users get fed up & leave or can't get started to begin with and sign up on a centralised competitor instead.

In both cases I haven't even addressed the issue of funding the network itself - there is still no business model (and any business model where users pay would require the service to have enough value for them to begin doing so - chicken & egg problem when the value of a social network is in its network effects), and even if there was, it will be more expensive because decentralisation requires a lot more system resources.

Re: Tweetbot. April 2011 – January 2023

#332
post #320
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Starting Feb 1st using a third part client will require Twitter Blue.” That’s all it would have taken. Probably would have made a huge increase in subscribers too. This is 100% a control move. He wants full control over how everyone experiences Twitter (not sure why). So this was pulled. Of course you can NEVER go back from this move.

>This is 100% a control move. He wants full control over how everyone experiences Twitter (not sure why). The only thing I can think of is Musk was concerned the two largest 3rd parties would create their own network seeded with something like 66% of the most influential users.

They still should. Rather than shutting down third party Twitter apps they should all get together and just swap out Mastodon for the backend.

Re: Tweetbot. April 2011 – January 2023

#333
post #87

If you're not paying attention to Mastodon now, a think to know about Tapbots and Ivory, their new ActivityPub client, is that their TestFlight betas, which they release in batches of a thousand or so at a time, last for just a couple minutes before they're all snapped up; there seems to be pretty huge demand for it. With a decent client (I've bounced around a couple of them so far), even in a beta state, the experie…

100%. I definitely found my usage increase when I found a more delightful and well-built client with Ivory.

For those new to Mastodon, I wrote a huge 8K word post about it recently, from my POV as someone who worked at Twitter for 9 years: https://paulstamatiou.com/mastodon/

I go over some of the constraints that the federated model brings that might be particularly interesting.

Re: Tweetbot. April 2011 – January 2023

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What service does this? There are very strict rules in showing ads. Making sure you're not showing them by nsfw content, etc. or your advertisers will pull out. I can't think of a single service that provides ads for 3rd party clients to use. Most are hostile to 3rd party clients due to threatened ad revenue, that's why there's invidious, nitter, etc. whackamole.

Enforce it on clients over a certain number of users where they are big enough to manage following a bunch of rules around the ads. Then they can be audited to make sure they get doing it correctly.

Yeah it can be done with X amount of risk and auditing ($)...

I was mainly asking has it been done by any service?

Risking your advertisers is not wise and audits will be expensive and reactive not proactive.

Re: Tweetbot. April 2011 – January 2023

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What service does this? There are very strict rules in showing ads. Making sure you're not showing them by nsfw content, etc. or your advertisers will pull out. I can't think of a single service that provides ads for 3rd party clients to use. Most are hostile to 3rd party clients due to threatened ad revenue, that's why there's invidious, nitter, etc. whackamole.

> Making sure you're not showing them by nsfw content, etc. or your advertisers will pull out. Which you can control by just returning the ads as part of the API response for the feed, which I'm sure how the official client does it. Making the client classify NSFW content and hide ads based on that seems like a stupid idea.

Certainly, but the second you get a rouge actor, your advertisers are going to be pissed.

At the very best the rouge app won't display ads.

At the worse, they'll ignore a nsfw tag and won't show the spoiler overlay, angering your advertiser.

Audits can catch it, but only after the damage is done.

I don't think there's any service that lets their ad supported plan be in the hands of a 3rd party client.

Re: Tweetbot. April 2011 – January 2023

#336
post #298
post #87

If you're not paying attention to Mastodon now, a think to know about Tapbots and Ivory, their new ActivityPub client, is that their TestFlight betas, which they release in batches of a thousand or so at a time, last for just a couple minutes before they're all snapped up; there seems to be pretty huge demand for it. With a decent client (I've bounced around a couple of them so far), even in a beta state, the experie…

Yeah back when Elon bought the place and everyone was talking about moving to Mastodon I was dismissive. Wasn't expecting Twitter to start switching off systems like a ship in Star Trek trying to conserve energy for life support.. Looking forward to Tapbots new client. Don't really care what's powering the backend as it turns out, it just needs to stay working. Nice work Mastodon and the rest of the federation, I'll…

Welcome! If you are thinking of running it in Kubernetes, I have updated some old charts to work better with modern Kubernetes and Mastodon, you can find them here: https://github.com/rezonant/mastodon-chart

Re: Tweetbot. April 2011 – January 2023

#337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said the same thing even a few weeks ago, but the momentum for Mastodon is growing rapidly and it's really impressive to see, and Ivory is a very impressive client even in beta. Almost everyone I followed on Twitter is using it now, and I actually prefer the experience. It's like Twitter but without all the bots/spam/hate, at least for now.

What is "almost everyone"? Four people? Using it on what server? Mastadon is more like Discord than Twitter. There is no core server. There is no core experience. It's just an instanced message board.

That’s not my experience at all. I follow all kinds of people I followed on Twitter before. And they use all kinds of instances (some even migrated from instance to instance – I wouldn’t have noticed if they hadn’t mentioned it).

Using Ivory my experience is eerily similar to Twitter. Why do you think it wouldn’t be? If a critical mass of interesting people is there it just works.

I don’t really use the local timeline at all, that‘s just not relevant to me.

Obviously this will be wildly different for everyone depending on how many people made the move. For me personally and how I used Twitter it just works (and Twitter proper was getting more and more deserted and uninteresting anyway).

Re: Tweetbot. April 2011 – January 2023

#338
post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Twitter had a decade to implement something simple like this and didn't. I assume that there are technical reasons that it's hard to do with their codebase and it's simply not worth the time and money to do so.

Ads come with tracking, so there's probably an issue of trusting all the data that apps would have to send back. Twitter would have to document just how much tracking their ads require, and 3rd party developers could balk at it and cause a stink. OTOH the first party app can track as much as it wants and it'll fly under the radar.

> OTOH the first party app can track as much as it wants and it'll fly under the radar.

Until you get caught, and Apple/Google decide to boot the official app from the stores (if) you broke the respective agreements.

Re: Tweetbot. April 2011 – January 2023

#339
post #244
post #87

If you're not paying attention to Mastodon now, a think to know about Tapbots and Ivory, their new ActivityPub client, is that their TestFlight betas, which they release in batches of a thousand or so at a time, last for just a couple minutes before they're all snapped up; there seems to be pretty huge demand for it. With a decent client (I've bounced around a couple of them so far), even in a beta state, the experie…

Yeah, the big challenge with Mastodon is it's basically Twitter as it was like 15 years ago before they added a lot of features that define the modern Twitter experience, like trending/searching on keywords instead of just hashtags (something the leadership has said they do not want to support ever - imho a flag on the toot declaring it scrapeable would be better), an algorithmic feed that considers your follows foll…

> Twitter 15 years ago was a home of weirdos and journalists mostly. There's a reason it needed changes to take off.

Journalists ignored Twitter until the mainstream was on it. It was definitely full of a community of weirdos. I was there.

I was an early adopter of Twitter and the "no algorithms, no engagement metrics" Twitter was something I missed and was part of why I left Twitter around about 2016. It is something that I like that Mastodon provides a somewhat clean slate on.

Twitter was about ephemeral day to day life. I still remember Twitter was never more useful to me than those early days during conferences/conventions when you'd turn on SMS notifications (!) of a friend or two to help coordinate meetups and meals and use the rest of the feed flying by for a general zeitgeist of exciting things around the next corner to maybe give you a direction to head. If you missed a Tweet when it flew by it was probably too late to see the thing it was talking about and content "discoverability" didn't matter, no one cared.

I know that's not what Twitter has been in a while. I feel it fair to say that when a lot of the algorithm stuff came into play, especially with its toxic engagement-maximizing, but also with its toxic drive-by miscontextualizations, that stopped feeling like a useful Twitter to me.

I'm not going to stop instances from exploring some of that stuff on Mastodon, but I also am going to use rights to silence and block them and otherwise defederate with them at my discretion for how useful I think they are to the overall community. I think the community is just fine without the algorithms and the everything ever tooted is always searchable and scrapable for ever and ever and always relevant for miscontextualization later. I preferred Twitter without those things, those things were stuff that started me rethinking my relationship with Twitter and eventually lost me to Mastodon because I wanted to escape that.

Re: Tweetbot. April 2011 – January 2023

#340
post #87

If you're not paying attention to Mastodon now, a think to know about Tapbots and Ivory, their new ActivityPub client, is that their TestFlight betas, which they release in batches of a thousand or so at a time, last for just a couple minutes before they're all snapped up; there seems to be pretty huge demand for it. With a decent client (I've bounced around a couple of them so far), even in a beta state, the experie…

There are also lots of other interesting clients not from Tapbots. If losing Tweetbot was enough to make you look at Mastodon, keep that open mind and look at all the interesting clients out there.

what about the official client that everyone hates? The Android client seems to work well for me.
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