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Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

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Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm just not that good at networking, but I haven't found this to be true. Networking can let you bypass the very top of the funnel: Where you're pissing your resume into the void. And that's significant! But I've never "networked" myself into a job. Your standard Software Engineer peers in other companies just don't tend to have the power to hire. They may know which jobs are real, which ones are good, and mig…

We could be talking about different things, but networking at conferences and professional events has been productive for me. I'm talking real-life socializing here, not LinkedIn. You can size people up quickly and determine whether they are competent/sane without a lengthy interview process. It's less about having friends in high places than sharing war stories and establishing a rapport with like-minded people in a…

I've been going to tech meetups and talking to people there for, well, many years. It has never made any difference whatsoever in my job search. It hasn't surfaced any companies for me to apply to, it hasn't introduced me to any hiring managers, and it certainly didn't give me any behind-the-scenes insight into what working somewhere is like.

I've been going to events in the SF Bay area. Maybe you meant something different by "professional events," or maybe you're in an area with a higher concentration of tech than San Francisco.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#212

I've been through the dotcom slaughter of 2000-2002 as a new grad (undergrad) and the comparatively small slowdown of 2008 (grad school new grad). Get ready to hit the Submit button... a lot. The stories of "getting three job offers after four interviews at five companies" are no longer reality. My application:interview:offer ratio has always varied from 50:5:1 to 100:10:1, and I would expect something like that or w…

Great advice. This is the worst time job hunting for most of us since the tech economy hasn't really cut jobs since 08. 2020 and 2021 were crazy times, I interviewed with Amazon at least 4 times, got an interview with FB even. I don't consider myself to be a great dev and wound up making 200k per year at a point. Now it's all coming back down to reality and I'm rapidly re-adjusting my expectations. Interviews are get…

> 2020 and 2021 were crazy times, I interviewed with Amazon at least 4 times

I interviewed with Amazon last year and was specifically informed that it isn't possible to interview with them more than once a year. How did you interview four times in two years?

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#213
I've seen some people (mostly on Blind and one person IRL) very strongly suggest to those laid off from the Big Names™ to not just take a job at no-name tech companies, as it looks bad to both the Big Names™ and to the startups who like to hire from the Big Names™.

Does this line up with anyone's real world experience?

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#214
Everything I know about career comes from the 08-now era, but what I've seen has always been this:

1. Not all of the economy declines at once. Someone is hiring for something.

2. There is always a new trend spinning up. The trend may originate from the research sector, a government policy shift, or a large firm that has deployed a new business strategy. Those things result in new possibilities in the global supply chain, and therefore business formation and expansion.

3. When the trend is in its early stages - before it enters any hype cycle - you have to be on it and present yourself in a way that makes you "the person to seek out for x". If you get on and stay on, you get swept up in the resulting demand for skilled work.

4. Everything else is a continuation of that. Being a later hire means you're less central, and therefore less rewarded. When the trend ends you have to exit to a new one to have a continuation, otherwise the career is most likely going to have a gradual fade into obscurity.

All the more cosmetic stuff about whom to contact and how to contact them ranks beneath the macro trend positioning that makes you be near where the money is currently flowing, and part of the story of this recession is that the world's nations are all making big, strategic policy changes that redefine their economies.

What is probably going away: The leadership of the FAANG framework. The companies themselves will mostly stay around, but their scaling is done, and now it is about time for many of their products to be chipped away at by a swarm of new approaches, as has happened in past eras of software.

What is going to be interesting: AI, but not the nuts-and-bolts of machine learning. Those careers are made already, and you're way more likely to be acting as a consumer/integrator of their output. AI products and services in the larger view are still finding their way - approaches to integration, UX and so on.

Anything that deals with energy infrastructure and transport problems may be interesting. "ESG" is being pursued top down from Davos, and will change policies in many local governments. Software will be part of it, but it might be hard to find a niche that isn't occupied already. See Tony Seba's lectures for a sense of what might be opening up soon.

Crypto tokens have just hit another winter cycle. They are not dead at all; what the last cycle did is test the outer limits of schemes that misapply the tech, and a lot of "blockchain" companies were just that. The tech itself never broke in some fundamental way. It is ultimately another form of information system, one that indexes trades and valuations. The specifics of what is tracked in the system, the scale it should reach, and how secure it needs to be are still uncharted. It takes a creative mind to come up with experiments that reach beyond mimicry of traditional finance, but we're right around that point now. I'm following along with it; it could be interesting. Not one for finding a traditional job though, I think.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#215
Depending on your runway and goals you have a few options.

1. Take whatever you can get that’s closest to where you want to be. I worked as a sysadmin in a large financial firm as they were close to Linux distributed systems during the Great Recession. I’d advise sticking to something with a swe title, but taking a job as MLE for a year - or SWE - instead of a research position isn’t a bad strategy.

2. If you have lots of runway, start your own business! If it pans out, then you’ll be better off than your dream job. If it isn’t successful, you will have something to talk about in a year.

3. Stick to academia/research for a year. If you can hold off your graduation for a year, the market may be more favorable. Bear markets tend to be short.

4. Hike the AT/PCT/other bucket list activity. It can burn up the better part of a year, and will explain a resume gap well. Be mindful that employers will be concerned if they see an unexplained resume gap/and may not care about your fitness.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#216
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to jump in on this - I got canned in the last big recession and while not a new grad, I took the next (contract) job that came up, at much lower pay, and over the next year doubled my take home from the original job. Two lessons 1. Spend your lunchtimes job hunting. Treat it like a job 2. Move around as a new grad. Think of it like dating, you have to kiss a few frogs just to get an idea of what is out there. (M…

> Move around as a new grad. ... but not too much/too soon. Best to understand what you can/should learn and try and achieve that before looking for a change.

No one smart is expecting critical work from a new grad. If you move once every 1-2 years then you are fine. Once per year will raise flags after 3-4 jobs due to fear that you are being terminated on every job for some reason.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#217
post #205
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This advice always cracks me up. And, yet, all three jobs I've had in the last 25 years (including one in 2001), I landed because I knew someone senior at the company pretty well. Not strictly engineering but tech and tech ecosystem companies. Was that lucky and atypical? Perhaps. But those were my experiences. The last job I got through "normal" channels was from a campus interview at grad school.

> Was that lucky and atypical? If you started your career 25 years ago, you were present in the field before it massively expanded. Your peers are nothing like my peers (Started 13 years ago), and nothing like the peers of someone who started 3 years ago.

I’m not sure of your point. So a job I got 13 years ago largely through a contact isn’t how things work today? As in my most recent example.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#219
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Study doesn’t need to be intense. I got my current job with about 6 hours of leetcode and no CS degree (although I did take a small handful of CS courses)

What difficulty did you manage with 6 hours of study?

Easy and medium. I wasn’t asked any hard questions in my interview.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#220
post #18

I like the advice here: https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/advice-for-junior-softwar... (didn't write it, but it jives with my experience). I also wrote something here on how to stand out: https://letterstoanewdeveloper.com/2022/09/19/ways-to-stand-... Finally, you ask: > Is it better to get any job than keep searching for the job I'd be most suited for? That depends on your financial situation and emotional runway,…

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