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Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

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Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#141

Post by hef19898 »

JCM9 wrote: post #119
lowbloodsugar wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point there is no way any software company could justify, legally, hiring someone on an H1B. There are some 40k layoffs in last few months and certainly a large number of those are US citizens. Any company claiming that they can’t find a US citizen with the right skills is lying.

The Visa situation is very bad , but technically for better or worse it’s how the system was designed to work. H1Bs are meant to supplement the domestic supply of certain skills to meet demand. If demand drops (or as is happening with now supply increases) then it becomes hard to justify why one needs to hire an H1B over say someone already eligible for employment. Companies always game the system but it’s going to v…

As much as I tend to "defend" Europes social systems, when it comes to visas there are some similarities. True, once you are eligible for unemployment benefits in Germany, you can extend you residence title for that period. And then, being herw long enough even more. In case you are not eligible yet, well, things are different. I have quite a few collegues that might face that prospect sooner than they like, and of course the employer is not talking about this, nor are my co-workers necessarily aware of that. Kind of makes me angry with my emoloyer, in my book you do not screw around with peoples lives like that.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#142

Post by mooreds »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #137
mooreds wrote: post #18

I like the advice here: https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/advice-for-junior-softwar... (didn't write it, but it jives with my experience). I also wrote something here on how to stand out: https://letterstoanewdeveloper.com/2022/09/19/ways-to-stand-... Finally, you ask: > Is it better to get any job than keep searching for the job I'd be most suited for? That depends on your financial situation and emotional runway,…

Just to jump in on this - I got canned in the last big recession and while not a new grad, I took the next (contract) job that came up, at much lower pay, and over the next year doubled my take home from the original job. Two lessons 1. Spend your lunchtimes job hunting. Treat it like a job 2. Move around as a new grad. Think of it like dating, you have to kiss a few frogs just to get an idea of what is out there. (M…

> 2. Move around as a new grad. Think of it like dating, you have to kiss a few frogs just to get an idea of what is out there.

This is related, but I got my start in a small consulting company and think it is a great place for anyone to start. Small is anything from 10 to 100. The one with 100 employees will have more process and stability, but your impact at a 10 person company will be larger (and possibly easier to get hired by). Pick your poison.

You'll get lots of experience across domains and technologies, because it is a consulting company.

What you write and do will actually matter, because it is small.

And, of course, at a consulting company, as a developer, what you do is directly tied to revenue for the company, since they typically sell hours (or dev expertise, bundled in project scopes, which are measured internally in hours or hour equivalents).

I wrote some advice on how to approach these companies here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34253168

If they're good and have been around for a while, they'll know how to ride out the ups and downs that are coming (because they actually probably had ups and downs even during the good times; that's the nature of consulting).

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#143

Post by ghaff »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #137
mooreds wrote: post #18

I like the advice here: https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/advice-for-junior-softwar... (didn't write it, but it jives with my experience). I also wrote something here on how to stand out: https://letterstoanewdeveloper.com/2022/09/19/ways-to-stand-... Finally, you ask: > Is it better to get any job than keep searching for the job I'd be most suited for? That depends on your financial situation and emotional runway,…

Just to jump in on this - I got canned in the last big recession and while not a new grad, I took the next (contract) job that came up, at much lower pay, and over the next year doubled my take home from the original job. Two lessons 1. Spend your lunchtimes job hunting. Treat it like a job 2. Move around as a new grad. Think of it like dating, you have to kiss a few frogs just to get an idea of what is out there. (M…

>(Most people who stay in one job really mean lots of different jobs inside one giant conglomerate)

It doesn't even need to be a giant conglomerate. Roles evolve. Products/projects/priorities/technologies change. Certainly at the two 10K, give or take, employee companies I've worked for over ten years, I've done a lot of different things even though I went by some variant of the same title the whole time.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#144

Post by k3fernan »

My advice is to run a real process and track every application. Expect around 100 applications to 25 screens to 10 interview loops to 1 offer. Best case.

I would say directly reaching out to hiring managers and recruiters is your path forward, but they get a lot of inbound, so the odds of a cold outreach getting read is low unless you have an intro.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#147

Post by hiq »

lowbloodsugar wrote: post #100
AnotherGoodName wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was recently asked "Is it better to get any job than keep searching for the job I'd be most suited for?" by a laid off Visa holder. This is even more straightforward. Yes it is. I know many who are being hit by layoffs. The situation sucks. I don't think there's any advantage to downplaying this right now whether in your own mind or through advice to others. There's a huge number of tech workers laid off simultaneo…

At this point there is no way any software company could justify, legally, hiring someone on an H1B. There are some 40k layoffs in last few months and certainly a large number of those are US citizens. Any company claiming that they can’t find a US citizen with the right skills is lying.

> There are some 40k layoffs in last few months and certainly a large number of those are US citizens.

That doesn't matter if they all find a new job very quickly, what's more relevant is the unemployment rate. Is it increasing?

At least when it comes to the overall unemployment rate, it seems to be very low when I see articles like this: https://www.businessinsider.com/december-jobs-report-labor-m...

I didn't find IT-specific stats to be fully sure (well it's somewhere on https://www.bls.gov if you're so inclined), but I'd be surprised if the IT industry were much worse (if at all) than the average over all industries.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#148

Post by ryandrake »

fernandopj wrote: post #89
jabroni_salad wrote: post #81

I graduated in 09. * It's easier to get a job if you already have a job. It's okay to take a shitty job as long as you don't get complacent about it. * Gaps get stressed by job seekers in advice requests because it is a question that can make you look bad. However, if you are actually at an interview, they are fishing for bad dealbreakers not minor imperfections. Don't worry to much about it. * If you get hired via a…

> Network aggressively and be likeable. You never know when that linkedin connection from a shit job 3 years ago will throw you a bone. I know everybody on HN really likes their leetcode but if you have an inside reference, the interview is reduced to just a vibe check. ++1 this. Couldn't have said better myself. I went more than 10 years not having to apply anywhere, switching jobs just by referral - interviews felt…

Maybe I'm just not that good at networking, but I haven't found this to be true. Networking can let you bypass the very top of the funnel: Where you're pissing your resume into the void. And that's significant! But I've never "networked" myself into a job. Your standard Software Engineer peers in other companies just don't tend to have the power to hire. They may know which jobs are real, which ones are good, and might be able to help coach / steer you the right way, but I've never seen a case where I got an actual job offer from a peer without at least still having to go through the "phone screen + whiteboard hazing" grind.

The best I've ever got out of networking was, "Thanks for re-connecting! You should apply for job #41190, since I particularly know that hiring manager is really motivated to hire! Prepare for questions A, B, and maybe C. Happy to do a mock interview. Good luck!" And I got the job, so that's great! But, have realistic expectations. You're not going to bypass the queue and get an offer letter just because you're good friends with one of that company's Senior Software Engineers.

EDIT: Maybe it's different at the ultra-high level, like "VP of Engineering." I have no idea, never been up to that level and don't have peers there. But I can't imagine that a "VP of Engineering" candidate has to do phone screens, and grind at the whiteboard, and have to deal with recruiters and ghosting. Maybe they don't even have to apply and get traditionally interviewed like us commoners. Who knows? Any VPs of Engineering on HN care to chime in and describe how hiring works at your level?

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#149

Post by hiq »

adra wrote: post #110
Aaronstotle wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll add to this, I've had 5 jobs within 5 years of graduating. The first 2 jumps were due to compensation, was able to get a nice raise each time. The third job was a good fit, however the role evolved into something I didn't like as much and didn't fit my career goals. I took the fourth job to try something new, quickly found out the role had nothing I enjoyed doing. All of the experiences were valuable in terms of…

An average tenure of 1 year in a job is a red hot flag I'd almost immediately reject. Life's too short to spend a month wasted training an employee that's just going to jump again. It's my number 1 no-hire criteria. Good on you for convincing so many hiring managers that you're worth the risk though I suppose?

What's nice with this is that it automatically fixes itself: once you've jumped enough that no new employer wants you, you (have to) stay at the same one long again to be a good candidate again, assuming you don't get fired.

Though after reading HN long enough, I have to question whether you ever end up in this relatively bad situation, especially if every jump was basically a promotion.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#150

Post by sokoloff »

adra wrote: post #110
Aaronstotle wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll add to this, I've had 5 jobs within 5 years of graduating. The first 2 jumps were due to compensation, was able to get a nice raise each time. The third job was a good fit, however the role evolved into something I didn't like as much and didn't fit my career goals. I took the fourth job to try something new, quickly found out the role had nothing I enjoyed doing. All of the experiences were valuable in terms of…

An average tenure of 1 year in a job is a red hot flag I'd almost immediately reject. Life's too short to spend a month wasted training an employee that's just going to jump again. It's my number 1 no-hire criteria. Good on you for convincing so many hiring managers that you're worth the risk though I suppose?

I agree that 5-in-5 as a candidates total experience and applying to my company to become a 6th? That’s pretty much not going to happen.

Someone who has stayed at a place or two for a couple years and been promoted there and then had a bunch of 1-year stints? I’m more open to hearing the explanation.

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