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EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

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Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#241

Post by Eisenstein »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #234
Yaggo wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are mixing up battery management system (BMS) with thermal management system. BMS is practically mandatory with multi-cell li-ion systems. Even cheap consumer devices such as laptops have one.

Can we agree that what modern EVs do for battery management is very different to what early models did and that that has greatly improved battery longevity? I think it's all called battery management. But early EV models did not have a whole lot of it. It obviously had some electronics to read out the current charge and put some basic limits in place. But no thermal management or cooling or any of the smart battery m…

You think it is called something, but state it with authority and ask for an apology when corrected. You should work on your communications skills.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#242

Post by machiaweliczny »

peterashford wrote: post #167
joshe wrote: post #85

It feels like an iceberg has been slowly turning over for the past 10 years, and is now flipping quickly. Economic growth is now more correlated with carbon reduction than increase. The useful work of preventing coal plants is over and we need to switch gears to get home appliances, ev cars, solar, wind and transmission out as quickly as possible. Environmental groups and common knowledge haven't caught up yet, but t…

Maybe that's because Global Warming isn't the only environmental issue that they're concerned about? We started getting massive bio diversity reduction since the 70s and that wasn't because of AGW. Human consumption of natural resources (esp. habitat) is a huge issue for the environment and "a lot of factories producing ev cars, appliances, and batteries" will accelerate that.

Yep this is like saddest thing that 50% of species died in last 50 years due to human activity.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#243

Post by sandos »

Reason077 wrote: post #12
eddhead wrote: post #6

How did BritishVolt go bankrupt then?

Manufacturing battery cells is very energy intensive, so I’m guessing that the recent sky-high UK energy prices spooked their investors and made UK battery manufacturing look unviable. Something like NorthVolt, on the other hand, works because they have access to reliable low-cost hydro in Northern Sweden.

Yes, Northvolt tried building their factory further south in Sweden (Västerås) but was denied due to limited grid capacity. Turns out they were somewhat lucky, since electricity prices are cheaper furter north, and the energy crisis happened!

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#244

Post by iso1631 »

ThunderSizzle wrote: post #40
iso1631 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine the gas station selling you a tank of gas for $10 and buying it back for $15 later in the day, all while your car sits on your driveway

It will never work that way, except for the lucky few. Have you ever tried selling books back to the school store? They'll buy it from you for $10 when you paid $100 for it. Same thing will happen for this.

If you don't like the fee they'll pay you then don't sell the power back. If you don't like the cost they charge you, don't buy the power.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#245

Post by crote »

olivermarks wrote: post #101
bryanlarsen wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's trivial to prevent the power company from doing this -- just unplug your car. They can't force anybody to participate, so if they want participation they'll have to pay and pay well.

But then you won't be able to drive your electric car because it's not charged up...

EVs can still be driven when they aren't 100% full at the start of the trip.

If your vehicle has a range of 400 miles and you know you only need 60 miles of range in the next 48 hours, why not sell 100-200 miles of range for short-term grid storage? You're only going to drive 60 miles, so it doesn't matter if you start with 400 miles of capacity remaining or 200 miles.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#246

Post by dahfizz »

shagie wrote: post #204
dahfizz wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone expecting regular 4+ day outages is already going to have a generator. What people want is for the car which is already plugged into their house to kick in when the power goes out for an hour or two.

At an hour or two, that's ballpark 3kWh of power you'd need. There are battery backup solutions in this range that are $3k to $6k (that are frankly quite interesting. Those have the instant on design so that if the power is lost to the house you have a few seconds and its back up and running.

But why would I waste an extra $5k and floor space in my garage if _I already have an EV that should be able to do this_.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#247

Post by cinntaile »

nawitus wrote: post #99
cinntaile wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has to do with lack of demand during high PV production. This excess energy still has to go somewhere, it doesn't just disappear. This costs the grid operators money, so either they charge you or don't let you feed the excess power to the grid.

Are you saying the price is negative during high PV production? In sane markets like Finland solar panel owners need to pay for generating electricity to the grid if the price is negative (which is it sometimes).

Regular consumers don't offer their production on the energy markets so they don't set the price. Maybe your panels can be counted as part of the energy company's solar production, in that case I guess they could indirectly have an influence? I'm not sure if this is done though. A negative price can just be a result of tax subventions (in case you still make a profit even if the price goes negative) or when it's simply cheaper to bid a negative price so that you can keep producing instead of having to turn off production and then reboot it at a later time.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#248

Post by pandama »

eunos wrote: post #238
pandama wrote: post #89

Please say a prayer for the people of the Congo who will have to mine the cobalt we want.

As other comment wrote batteries are moving to cobalt free LFP. Now can it be said that we just rob the future from Congo by preventing them capitals from their cobalt?

With "the future from the Congo", you are talking about the people with control over the artisinal miners using guns, right?

There isn't enough cobalt supply despite these measures and so LFP is being used in lower range cars. No way I would buy one of those.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#249

Post by rtkwe »

cwkoss wrote: post #97
mhb wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what a market is for.

Yeah, I'd try to model the deprecation cost of the battery to some extent while tuning my magic numbers in the trading bot settings. ~1,500 cycles per $16k battery replacement. Shouldn't sell a full cycle for less than ~$15. Don't arbitrage a 1% point of battery life unless it yields at least $0.15. Might just set it at $0.20 per 1% for healthy margin/price-in hassle of battery replacement.

You're not actually getting the full 100% out of a cycle probably when the utility drains it though. They'll take a portion of your battery then it'll either charge up again using a partial cycle or your car will get charged at home like normal where the math you did is closer.

It's also not super clear how much wear small charge discharge cycles does on a normal battery if it's not in the bottom or top 20% of the battery.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#250

Post by shagie »

dahfizz wrote: post #246
shagie wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At an hour or two, that's ballpark 3kWh of power you'd need. There are battery backup solutions in this range that are $3k to $6k (that are frankly quite interesting. Those have the instant on design so that if the power is lost to the house you have a few seconds and its back up and running.

But why would I waste an extra $5k and floor space in my garage if _I already have an EV that should be able to do this_.

You may not be at home during the power outage. This could impact things such as aquarium support, home security, or cold food storage.

You may need additional equipment or an upgrade to existing equipment to do the power outage cut over. To do this (and not just support an outlet from the vehicle), it is necessary to remove the house from the grid for the duration - suddenly changing phases can damage equipment (e.g. when the power comes back on). Additionally, if you were still connected to the grid, it would mean that your batteries are trying to support the portion of the entire grid (which it will fail badly at).

This also depends on the equipment that you currently have. Not everyone has a battery backup Tesla power wall. If you are plugging the car into 120v or 240v outlets, that doesn't have the circuitry to support isolation of the house from the grid after a power outage and the wiring for the 120v or 240v outlet isn't heavy enough to support the current draw for the rest of the house even if it was isolated.

You may also decide that trying to do it from the car, while possible, is a bad idea. https://electrek.co/2021/02/23/tesla-voids-your-warranty-pow... and https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/tesla-ne...

> This New Vehicle Limited Warranty does not cover any vehicle damage or malfunction directly or indirectly caused by, due to or resulting from normal wear or deterioration, abuse, misuse, negligence, accident, improper maintenance, operation, storage or transport, including, but not limited to, any of the following:

> ...

> Using the vehicle as a stationary power source

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