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Microsoft to lay off 11k employees

reuters.com

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Re: Microsoft to lay off 11k employees

#461

Post by simplotek »

pandaman wrote: post #428
simplotek wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is an uncharitable take. The ability to fire at-will is the reason companies in the US are able to hire and pay as high as they do. I feel there is no rational basis for this belief, and it's mostly guided by wishful thinking to fool yourself into believing that all this penance leads to some kind of salvation. It doesn't. There are highly paid professionals in other countries who benefit from higher worke pro…

>Heck, I personally know a FANG who was forced to pay overtime for oncalls in europe while US workers only get the pager app and the shaft. It does not follow that it leads to greater disposable income. Retail workers in the US also get paid overtime yet their disposable income is nowhere close to that of exempt (no overtime) programmers. Basically, with the tax rates in most of Europe, one's disposable income would…

> It does not follow that it leads to greater disposable income.

It wasn't supposed to. It was suppose to point out a concrete example of how stronger worker protection leads to being paid fairly for the work you do, while US workers are not.

Meanwhile, feel free to check how any FANG salary for software engineers in places like Seattle compares with the cost of living, and how the salaries for equivalent positions in European cities like Amsterdam, which also has a notoriously high real estate, lead to higher disposable income.

Re: Microsoft to lay off 11k employees

#462

Post by ClumsyPilot »

bagacrap wrote: post #100
endsync wrote: post #78

Bloat is real, but there's another labor market dynamic in play here. There was a huge run-up in corporate employee compensation in the tech sector over the last few years. (Some called it a "shortage," remember. Some of it is genuine growth in the sector, some of it was definitely "labor hoarding" by large companies that could afford to carry excess staff in a tight market as a hedge against being unable to fill cri…

Is this a war on talent, or just free market dynamics?

'Free market dynamic' just means 'natural' - for some reason people think natural = good.

Cystic fibrosis is natural. So is the Plague and brain tumous.

Collusion, wash trading, self-dealing and insider trading are all 'free market dynamics'.

Re: Microsoft to lay off 11k employees

#463

Post by kika »

roncesvalles wrote: post #450
kika wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just Powell, every Fed kept talking about "we don't want to repeat history". What they meant is 1970-1979, when they were beating down the economy for a decade and when they decided to let the pressure go, inflation went right back where it was before the beating. Because the wages were still up and with the power of the unions it was very difficult to bring them down. At least that's how it was explained to me b…

That implies there's some unspoken understanding among CFOs that the Fed won't ease up until tech salaries go down, and that requires layoffs.

If I have to bet whether this understanding exists or not, I'd bet on exists.

Re: Microsoft to lay off 11k employees

#464

Post by ClumsyPilot »

simplotek wrote: post #150
qeternity wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would they spend any amount much less $3b or $10b to keep people they don’t need/want?

> Why would they spend any amount much less $3b or $10b to keep people they don’t need/want? I understand that HN is a US-centric forum, where neoliberalism dictates the baseline and the interpretation of all things in life is reduced to a simplistic transaction in a theoretical free market. However, society is comprised of people with family and a personal life and hopes and dreams and aspirations. Hiring someone ha…

> I understand that HN is a US-centric forum, where neoliberalism dictates the baseline and the interpretation of all things in life is reduced to a simplistic transaction in a theoretical free market.

The only reason Neofeudalism didn't quite arrive is that its difficult to get rid of unprofitable serfs. A lord was actually sort of responsible for his territory.

Here you can dump unwantes on the state and voila, no responsebility!

Re: Microsoft to lay off 11k employees

#465

Post by ClumsyPilot »

applejacks wrote: post #219
simplotek wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would they spend any amount much less $3b or $10b to keep people they don’t need/want? I understand that HN is a US-centric forum, where neoliberalism dictates the baseline and the interpretation of all things in life is reduced to a simplistic transaction in a theoretical free market. However, society is comprised of people with family and a personal life and hopes and dreams and aspirations. Hiring someone ha…

Is it neoliberalism specifically, or even just generally living in a capitalist society? (Which hey, I'm happy enough to live in a capitalist society, it has been good to me, but I definitely notice myself evaluating nearly everything through a financial or transactional lens).

Its a tragedy of public education that people do not realise that there are different kinds of capitalism. After all, slave trade was capitalism too.

We just went through a massive transition from Kenzian to Neoliberal system, and nobody realised. The underperformance of Neoliberal system compared to its predessesor should be the biggest discussion point in all news.

Noone has even heard of shumpeterian theory.

Re: Microsoft to lay off 11k employees

#466

Post by skinnymuch »

yieldcrv wrote: post #260
mgkimsal wrote: post #34

11,000 people - let's say an average loaded cost of $250k/yr. That's... ~$3b/yr these folks cost MSFT. Granted, it's per year, but ... keeping these people on for another 3 years would cost ~$10b. MSFT currently have $100b cash on hand. It's gotta be a little... frustrating to get be part of a 5% cut when there's so much free cash sitting around. I know, it's a narrow view of corporate finance, and I don't have the '…

> frustrating to get be part of a 5% cut when there's so much free cash sitting around. I know, it's a narrow view of corporate finance, and I don't have the 'big picture', but... still doesn't sit right with me. nobody is entitled to be an employee, the purpose of corporations isn't to print employment numbers, these observations you made should be unrelated

Capitalism is a failure. Everyone should be entitled to money.

Re: Microsoft to lay off 11k employees

#467

Post by ClumsyPilot »

simplotek wrote: post #404
dasil003 wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an uncharitable take. The ability to fire at-will is the reason companies in the US are able to hire and pay as high as they do. As a dual-national Brazilian-American who has also spent years living in Europe, the social contracts are very different, and different people might value different things, but I'll take the downside layoff risk in exchange for upside in pay and mobility.

> This is an uncharitable take. The ability to fire at-will is the reason companies in the US are able to hire and pay as high as they do. I feel there is no rational basis for this belief, and it's mostly guided by wishful thinking to fool yourself into believing that all this penance leads to some kind of salvation. It doesn't. There are highly paid professionals in other countries who benefit from higher worke pro…

> it's mostly guided by wishful thinking to fool yourself into believing that all this penance leads to some kind of salvation.

Something similar leads to russian people to support Putin. They know that they are wrong, but the thought that they are wrong and all the suffering was for nothing is too terrifying for their subconcience to even ankowledge.

Re: Microsoft to lay off 11k employees

#468

Post by ClumsyPilot »

nickdothutton wrote: post #43

Corporate excellence programmes are about removing the bottom 10% of performers. However most mass lay-offs aren’t about that kind of performance, they are the answer to the question asked by the buy-side analyst: “If companyX spends 5% on areaY, and you spend 7%, where’s should I look for the benefit delivered in your results, because I’m not seeing it.” I’ve been there.

Indeed. What is also not understood, company performance is not a result of individual performance, any more than efficiency of your car is a result of quality of steel used to build the body of the car.

Incorrect organisation and priorities will absolutely waste the best individual performers, and lead them to depression to boot. Correct organisation can deliver results even from a mediocore team.

Re: Microsoft to lay off 11k employees

#469

Post by thrashh »

redtriumph wrote: post #324
thrashh wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if you’re not hiring, your competitor is picking up the talent Plus the more people that you have, the faster you can get competitive products out to market Could be a damned if you do, dammed if you don’t situation

> Plus the more people that you have, the faster you can get competitive products out to market This is not always true. Do you have citation to back this up?

Well I said “can.”

It’s not always true but you can’t do the work of 6 people with 2.

I’ve definitely been on teams blocked by the number of people where getting even one more QA person sped things up a lot.

Re: Microsoft to lay off 11k employees

#470

Post by ddalex »

oldstrangers wrote: post #96

What sort of system exists for these monster layoffs that they can just (relatively) quickly patch the hole left by removing 11,000 people? I can't comprehend what that looks like logistically.

It can be either (whole product/teams get cancelled) either horizontal (lowest rated 5%). Usually both, with the critical teams get extra headcount
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