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Western Arrogance and China

rkeng.substack.com

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Re: Western Arrogance and China

#21

Post by smalltalkcoder »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #17
smalltalkcoder wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't read the article. Latana's Democracy Perception Index for 2022 shows that the Chinese believe their country is democratic. Stats do show at least 120 million Chinese have travelled outside the country every year (except, of course, during the pandemic years). This is not speculation requiring optimism.

Do you have a cite for that. The most I can find is that 120 million Chinese had passports in 2016. According to https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-07-09/Chinese-passport-holde... , they still had 120 million in 2019, and were expecting 240 million by 2020 because of a price cut in the passport fee (and then the pandemic comes, so I doubt they made those numbers). According to https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107607…

Hong Kong's population is only 7 million or so, a tiny fraction of 120 million travelers, assuming every Hongkonger went on international tours.

Re: Western Arrogance and China

#22

Post by seanmcdirmid »

smalltalkcoder wrote: post #21
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a cite for that. The most I can find is that 120 million Chinese had passports in 2016. According to https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-07-09/Chinese-passport-holde... , they still had 120 million in 2019, and were expecting 240 million by 2020 because of a price cut in the passport fee (and then the pandemic comes, so I doubt they made those numbers). According to https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107607…

Hong Kong's population is only 7 million or so, a tiny fraction of 120 million travelers, assuming every Hongkonger went on international tours.

Hong Kong is a city state however, so it is probably true that most of their residents travel abroad each year (if we count China as traveling abroad, but even if we don't, > 50% is probably about right).

Re: Western Arrogance and China

#23

Post by seanmcdirmid »

smalltalkcoder wrote: post #20
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of reporting on China in the western media that just reports..you know...news. You can spot check whatever china-related articles are showing on western media specific pages (assuming you aren't in China and therefore are blocked from those sources, of course): https://www.cnn.com/world/china https://www.nytimes.com/topic/destination/china https://www.wsj.com/news/types/china-news?mod=nav_top_subsec.…

Of course, I don't read "boring reports". I mostly read opinion pieces and journalists with on-site reporting.

Most news is boring; e.g. look at the first 15 minutes of the CCTV 7 PM news cast, it is just what Xi Jinping did today! If you just want to consume opinion pieces, then why not just look at FoxNews? WSJ and Economist, especially, are in a different boat since they cater to business readers, and they would lose money if reporting on China was constrained to just opinion pieces.

> journalists with on-site reporting

Despite China's best efforts to deport foreign journalists, there are still more than a few left.

Re: Western Arrogance and China

#25

Post by smalltalkcoder »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #22
smalltalkcoder wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hong Kong's population is only 7 million or so, a tiny fraction of 120 million travelers, assuming every Hongkonger went on international tours.

Hong Kong is a city state however, so it is probably true that most of their residents travel abroad each year (if we count China as traveling abroad, but even if we don't, > 50% is probably about right).

I assume you know that the majority of Hong Kong citizens live in poverty. They can barely afford a roof over their heads, much less international travel.

But perhaps you've never experienced poverty, so you may not know.

Re: Western Arrogance and China

#26

Post by seanmcdirmid »

smalltalkcoder wrote: post #25
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hong Kong is a city state however, so it is probably true that most of their residents travel abroad each year (if we count China as traveling abroad, but even if we don't, > 50% is probably about right).

I assume you know that the majority of Hong Kong citizens live in poverty. They can barely afford a roof over their heads, much less international travel. But perhaps you've never experienced poverty, so you may not know.

Although there are a lot of poor people in HK, it isn't true that most of them live in poverty:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2022-11-02/hong-kong...

1.6 million out of 7.3 million people is definitely serious, but hardly a majority. I've been to the SAR a few times, and don't think it is especially poor, especially when compared to even China's richest city like Shanghai.

As for my own personal experiences, please don't make assumptions like that. You have no idea what I've been through in my life, and it is rather not relevant to this discussion.

Re: Western Arrogance and China

#27

Post by smalltalkcoder »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #26
smalltalkcoder wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you know that the majority of Hong Kong citizens live in poverty. They can barely afford a roof over their heads, much less international travel. But perhaps you've never experienced poverty, so you may not know.

Although there are a lot of poor people in HK, it isn't true that most of them live in poverty: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2022-11-02/hong-kong... 1.6 million out of 7.3 million people is definitely serious, but hardly a majority. I've been to the SAR a few times, and don't think it is especially poor, especially when compared to even China's richest city like Shanghai. As for my own personal experiences…

Perhaps I overstated the poverty in HK. But my point was that many people there cannot afford to travel. They live paycheck to paycheck; they have very little in the way of savings. I know people in HK, including family. Most people in HK are not well-off.

When you add these to the people who are living in poverty, that doesn't leave for a lot of travelers.

Re: Western Arrogance and China

#28

Post by seanmcdirmid »

smalltalkcoder wrote: post #27
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although there are a lot of poor people in HK, it isn't true that most of them live in poverty: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2022-11-02/hong-kong... 1.6 million out of 7.3 million people is definitely serious, but hardly a majority. I've been to the SAR a few times, and don't think it is especially poor, especially when compared to even China's richest city like Shanghai. As for my own personal experiences…

Perhaps I overstated the poverty in HK. But my point was that many people there cannot afford to travel. They live paycheck to paycheck; they have very little in the way of savings. I know people in HK, including family. Most people in HK are not well-off. When you add these to the people who are living in poverty, that doesn't leave for a lot of travelers.

The ability to afford an apartment (expensive, even rent) and the ability to take a holiday to Thailand are completely different costs. An HK resident could be homeless (unable to afford rent) and still easily have the ability to take a holiday to Phuket. That's how crazy HK is, at least.

Re: Western Arrogance and China

#29

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #14
smalltalkcoder wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether or not we think it's democratic is irrelevant; the important thing is that the Chinese think it's democratic. China's system doesn't have to work for us , as long as it works for them . The Chinese believe they enjoy just as much freedom as we do. They are informed by their international travel. Every year, over 100 million Chinese travel the world over. They've seen our freedoms in the US, UK, France, German…

Most Chinese wouldn't classify their government as "Democratic" even if they think the government works for them. Most Chinese never go abroad either, just a small portion that makes up the middle class. You aren't going to talk to some farmer in the middle of henan province about their overseas trips. Heck, most people in Shanghai (the richest city) haven't been abroad, especially if they don't have hukou there (and…

In 2019, there were about 150 million outbound tourists from China (and I think this means mainland China, specifically, but I don't know if multiple trips by the same person count multiple times).[0]

That's up from 100 million in 2013, so the number was rapidly increasing before the pandemic (and it will probably begin rapidly increasing again).

Regardless, the point stands that at the moment, there's no mass rush to escape China. Most people in China think life is getting better year for year, and are fairly optimistic about the future of the country. It's not a democracy, but it's not the dystopia it's caricatured as in Western media.

0. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1068495/china-number-of-...

Re: Western Arrogance and China

#30

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #17
smalltalkcoder wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't read the article. Latana's Democracy Perception Index for 2022 shows that the Chinese believe their country is democratic. Stats do show at least 120 million Chinese have travelled outside the country every year (except, of course, during the pandemic years). This is not speculation requiring optimism.

Do you have a cite for that. The most I can find is that 120 million Chinese had passports in 2016. According to https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-07-09/Chinese-passport-holde... , they still had 120 million in 2019, and were expecting 240 million by 2020 because of a price cut in the passport fee (and then the pandemic comes, so I doubt they made those numbers). According to https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107607…

Hong Kong statistics are usually separate from mainland statistics. This goes for GDP, trade statistics (Hong Kong is a separate member of the WTO, for example), and many other things. I strongly suspect that it goes for tourism statistics as well.
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