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Western Arrogance and China

rkeng.substack.com

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Re: Western Arrogance and China

#11

Post by smalltalkcoder »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #9
smalltalkcoder wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly! The Chinese do not pretend they have Western liberal democracy, but the democratic system they do have works for them. Moreover, they've seen how well liberal democracy works for USA, UK, India, Taiwan, Brazil, Hungary, and so on, and they aren't fooled. The question is: why are we?

I wouldn't characterize the Chinese political system as democratic at all, and there are many ways in which it does not work for many people. However, life has gotten way better in China by almost every metric over the last few decades, and Western depictions of China are incredibly distorted / driven by fear and chauvinism.

And, by the way, there are also many ways in which our liberal democracy doesn't work for us. Look at our breathtaking Covid death tolls. Look at our staggering inflation and energy shortages. Look at the current mass protests all across Europe over the cost of living. Look at the media censorship over the truth about the Ukraine war. I could go on and on and on.

Re: Western Arrogance and China

#12

Post by seanmcdirmid »

smalltalkcoder wrote: post #4
mc32 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is great propaganda, that's for sure. Whoever it is, they seem to cherry pick certain things, ignore other things and keep a few things below the surface, unspoken. It reads like Sino-exceptionalism. I really love their maximum expansion map.

Ignore what? Have you been to China? The author isn't saying China is perfect. He's simply pointing out Western anti-China propaganda.

It is just strawman: look at some extreme reporting on China, therefore all reporting about China in the west is wrong. It would be like judging Chinese media based on editorials in Globaltimes.cn.

Re: Western Arrogance and China

#13

Post by seanmcdirmid »

smalltalkcoder wrote: post #11
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't characterize the Chinese political system as democratic at all, and there are many ways in which it does not work for many people. However, life has gotten way better in China by almost every metric over the last few decades, and Western depictions of China are incredibly distorted / driven by fear and chauvinism.

And, by the way, there are also many ways in which our liberal democracy doesn't work for us. Look at our breathtaking Covid death tolls. Look at our staggering inflation and energy shortages. Look at the current mass protests all across Europe over the cost of living. Look at the media censorship over the truth about the Ukraine war. I could go on and on and on.

> Look at our breathtaking Covid death tolls. Look at our staggering inflation and energy shortages. Look at the current mass protests all across Europe over the cost of living. Look at the media censorship over the truth about the Ukraine war.

I've had people in China asked if our country has been destroyed by the pandemic, inflation, energy shortages, BLM protests, etc...and well my answer is "no, you're just being lied to by CCTV." It isn't like the misinformation goes both ways.

Re: Western Arrogance and China

#14

Post by seanmcdirmid »

smalltalkcoder wrote: post #10
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't characterize the Chinese political system as democratic at all, and there are many ways in which it does not work for many people. However, life has gotten way better in China by almost every metric over the last few decades, and Western depictions of China are incredibly distorted / driven by fear and chauvinism.

Whether or not we think it's democratic is irrelevant; the important thing is that the Chinese think it's democratic. China's system doesn't have to work for us , as long as it works for them . The Chinese believe they enjoy just as much freedom as we do. They are informed by their international travel. Every year, over 100 million Chinese travel the world over. They've seen our freedoms in the US, UK, France, German…

Most Chinese wouldn't classify their government as "Democratic" even if they think the government works for them. Most Chinese never go abroad either, just a small portion that makes up the middle class. You aren't going to talk to some farmer in the middle of henan province about their overseas trips. Heck, most people in Shanghai (the richest city) haven't been abroad, especially if they don't have hukou there (and many don't).

Given that only 120 million Chinese even have passports, 100 million traveling the world every year seems a bit optimistic.

Re: Western Arrogance and China

#15

Post by smalltalkcoder »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #14
smalltalkcoder wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether or not we think it's democratic is irrelevant; the important thing is that the Chinese think it's democratic. China's system doesn't have to work for us , as long as it works for them . The Chinese believe they enjoy just as much freedom as we do. They are informed by their international travel. Every year, over 100 million Chinese travel the world over. They've seen our freedoms in the US, UK, France, German…

Most Chinese wouldn't classify their government as "Democratic" even if they think the government works for them. Most Chinese never go abroad either, just a small portion that makes up the middle class. You aren't going to talk to some farmer in the middle of henan province about their overseas trips. Heck, most people in Shanghai (the richest city) haven't been abroad, especially if they don't have hukou there (and…

You didn't read the article. Latana's Democracy Perception Index for 2022 shows that the Chinese believe their country is democratic.

Stats do show at least 120 million Chinese have travelled outside the country every year (except, of course, during the pandemic years). This is not speculation requiring optimism.

Re: Western Arrogance and China

#16

Post by smalltalkcoder »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #13
smalltalkcoder wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, by the way, there are also many ways in which our liberal democracy doesn't work for us. Look at our breathtaking Covid death tolls. Look at our staggering inflation and energy shortages. Look at the current mass protests all across Europe over the cost of living. Look at the media censorship over the truth about the Ukraine war. I could go on and on and on.

> Look at our breathtaking Covid death tolls. Look at our staggering inflation and energy shortages. Look at the current mass protests all across Europe over the cost of living. Look at the media censorship over the truth about the Ukraine war. I've had people in China asked if our country has been destroyed by the pandemic, inflation, energy shortages, BLM protests, etc...and well my answer is "no, you're just being…

True, but my point is that no population has a consensus. Whether you live in China or the West, there are people who know the truth and people who don't know the truth. There are people who are well-informed and people who are ignorant.

Re: Western Arrogance and China

#17

Post by seanmcdirmid »

smalltalkcoder wrote: post #15
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Chinese wouldn't classify their government as "Democratic" even if they think the government works for them. Most Chinese never go abroad either, just a small portion that makes up the middle class. You aren't going to talk to some farmer in the middle of henan province about their overseas trips. Heck, most people in Shanghai (the richest city) haven't been abroad, especially if they don't have hukou there (and…

You didn't read the article. Latana's Democracy Perception Index for 2022 shows that the Chinese believe their country is democratic. Stats do show at least 120 million Chinese have travelled outside the country every year (except, of course, during the pandemic years). This is not speculation requiring optimism.

Do you have a cite for that. The most I can find is that 120 million Chinese had passports in 2016. According to https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-07-09/Chinese-passport-holde..., they still had 120 million in 2019, and were expecting 240 million by 2020 because of a price cut in the passport fee (and then the pandemic comes, so I doubt they made those numbers). According to https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107607/china-number-of-..., it might be up to 170 million now?

But if what you say is true, that means most Chinese with a passport are taking international trips every year. If we discount Hong Kong (which doesn't require a passport, and anyways, is part of China, though it does count as an international trip from the airport's perspective, and you have to go through emigration, you also didn't say if you were counting HK residents also, so I guess we could have a bunch of different numbers there), I don't see how that could be true given the dearth of people with passports who are even capable of taking trips abroad.

Re: Western Arrogance and China

#18

Post by smalltalkcoder »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #12
smalltalkcoder wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignore what? Have you been to China? The author isn't saying China is perfect. He's simply pointing out Western anti-China propaganda.

It is just strawman: look at some extreme reporting on China, therefore all reporting about China in the west is wrong. It would be like judging Chinese media based on editorials in Globaltimes.cn.

I've followed Western media studiously for years. NYT, WSJ, CNN, BBC, etc. I've yet to see a story about China that doesn't spin things negatively for China. It doesn't have to be "extreme reporting."

Re: Western Arrogance and China

#19

Post by seanmcdirmid »

smalltalkcoder wrote: post #18
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is just strawman: look at some extreme reporting on China, therefore all reporting about China in the west is wrong. It would be like judging Chinese media based on editorials in Globaltimes.cn.

I've followed Western media studiously for years. NYT, WSJ, CNN, BBC, etc. I've yet to see a story about China that doesn't spin things negatively for China. It doesn't have to be "extreme reporting."

There are plenty of reporting on China in the western media that just reports..you know...news. You can spot check whatever china-related articles are showing on western media specific pages (assuming you aren't in China and therefore are blocked from those sources, of course):

https://www.cnn.com/world/china

https://www.nytimes.com/topic/destination/china

https://www.wsj.com/news/types/china-news?mod=nav_top_subsec...

https://www.economist.com/china

Just browsing the headlines, most of the stories are boring reports and wouldn't incite outrage even in a wolf warrior. But those aren't the ones that get shared around as anti-chinese articles, so...you know...selection bias.

Re: Western Arrogance and China

#20

Post by smalltalkcoder »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #19
smalltalkcoder wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've followed Western media studiously for years. NYT, WSJ, CNN, BBC, etc. I've yet to see a story about China that doesn't spin things negatively for China. It doesn't have to be "extreme reporting."

There are plenty of reporting on China in the western media that just reports..you know...news. You can spot check whatever china-related articles are showing on western media specific pages (assuming you aren't in China and therefore are blocked from those sources, of course): https://www.cnn.com/world/china https://www.nytimes.com/topic/destination/china https://www.wsj.com/news/types/china-news?mod=nav_top_subsec.…

Of course, I don't read "boring reports". I mostly read opinion pieces and journalists with on-site reporting.
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