Live data from Hacker News

EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

nature.com

181–190 of 278 posts

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#181
post #165

1) This only works when the overlap peak electric demand and peak vehicle demand do not overlap. Night time, when the cars sit idle, is also a low demand time of day, and the afternoon energy demand peak coincides partially with the evening commute. 2) The loss of value to the owner based on cycles used needs to take into account that the failure of the battery in a vehicle can be what causes its final retirement, i.…

A sibling comment mentions (but maybe doesn't realize the importance of) what battery storage is primarily useful for: night power. Solar is cheap and easy for power when the sun is up, but doesn't exist when the sun sets. The "evening commute" is mostly during the time when the sun is up; where you run into issues is: 1. After the evening commute in the early hours of the night, people are still awake at home using…

A standard US dryer outlet is rated for 30 amps at 240v. For a sustained rating of 80% that's 5760 watts, which at 4 miles per kwh is 23 miles per hour, not 30.

Frankly it would take a hell of a lot to convince people to be ok with getting home, plugging their car in, and having the charge level go down instead of up. I certainly wouldn't be comfortable with it.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#182
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

School buses seem like possibly the only real use case here, since they have a very seasonal usage pattern. For other commercial vehicles, the operators buy them to operate, not sit around and power the grid. When are they envisioned to be powering the grid?

Not just seasonal, the school busses are also not in use during the day while school is in session, which is unusual for mass transit busses.

Most buses do at least 4 trips a day, elementary then a middle or high school route in the morning, then repeat that in the afternoon.

There are only idle for 2 or 3 hours during the day.

(Field trips can add another usage in the middle of the day as well)

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#183
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you don’t want or can’t get dedicated stationary storage (although it comes with generous federal, state, and utility subsidies in California). I installed stationary LFP batteries (from Enphase) on my house in CA 1.5 years ago, but I then discovered that the state and utility subsidies [1] only apply if you are in a very low income (for CA) bracket, have a health condition that requires backup power, or live in…

How do you like your Enphase batteries? I was pondering buying them, already have Enphase solar. I'm particularly interested in whether you're doing any load-shifting with them, and if so, how easy it is to do with the software. I'm paying $.90/kWh at summer peak, so while I'm still on net-metering, I'm somewhat interested in going ahead and fully arbitraging during peak.

> How do you like your Enphase batteries?

I'm mostly happy with them. The batteries are pretty much set-and-forget, but I change the reserve level by season (90% in winter, 30% in summer). The system automatically decides how to do load shifting to optimize for your particular rate structure. I will say the monitoring software can be janky at times. It's gotten better, but sometimes it is very slow to connect to the system.

> I'm paying $.90/kWh at summer peak

Whoa, where is that? That's 2x more expensive than California or Hawaii. You must be on a wholesale rate plan with very low off-peak rates if you are considering arbitrage. It's also good that you waited until this year, because before the IRA, the residential battery tax credit was only available if you charged it with on-site renewables, not from the grid.

I don't do any grid arbitrage in the sense of buying low and selling back to the grid from my batteries when rates are high. That's not possible for homeowners in CA, is it in your area? However, several places in Southern California already have home-battery based virtual-power-plants that you can participate in, and I think it integrates with Enphase batteries. In those programs, the arbitrage is managed by a 3rd party company which then compensates the homeowner.

However, my evening loads during the peak rate hours do draw on my battery until it hits its reserve level, so what I do is more like peak-rate avoidance than arbitrage.

My batteries also don't charge from the grid, just from my PV array. With subsidized net-metering 2.0, the difference between peak and off peak for me is only $.07/kWh, so there's really not a ton of economic value there, maybe like $70-80/year at most.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#184
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not crazy, it's actually a publicized optional feature on the F-150 Lightning, and the F-150 hybrid has an optional 240V 30A output that can be used as a home backup as well (although that'd be a bit more manual).

How could you plug a whole house into a 30A without immediately blowing the fuse?

Depends on your appliances. 30A @ 240V is 7.2 kW; which is plenty if you don't have AC or electric heating or cooling. If you do have those, you'll at least need to be sure not to run any two of those at once, if you can run them at all; you need to be careful with things like dryers, heaters, heat pumps, air conditioner, oven, stove, water heaters (especially tankless, but check your amps on an electric storage water heater too). Well pumps can be big loads too; mine is rated at 30A by itself, but many people have smaller pumps or utility water.

FWIW, the F-150 Lightning car to home option only goes up to 40A, which isn't that much more.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#185
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming V2G means Vehicle to Ground, this is something I would like to see for the following use-case. I would like to use my car battery as a temporary home battery in the inevitable case of a grid outage. This opens the option to bring energy home from another location. Reduce or eliminates the need for a battery in a grid-tied house. Am I crazy? Edit: Granted that doesn't mean the energy company can use my car's…

> I would like to use my car battery as a temporary home battery in the inevitable case of a grid outage. This opens the option to bring energy home from another location. Reduce or eliminates the need for a battery in a grid-tied house. Question is "how long?" and "how much?" Lets take a 100 kWh battery which matches a Tesla Model S battery option and is a nice number for doing conversions from. https://shrinkthatfo…

Anyone expecting regular 4+ day outages is already going to have a generator. What people want is for the car which is already plugged into their house to kick in when the power goes out for an hour or two.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Aren't they best suited to do this??? They don't have a million EV batteries, purchased outside the scope of this program, sitting around idle and connected to the grid. Their customers do.

Utilities don't yet have a million EV batteries laying around, but they (or specialist EoL battery companies) will soon. From the abstract:- > Participation rates fall below 10% if half of EV batteries at end-of-vehicle-life are used as stationary storage. Half seems conservative to me. There are already lots of startups wanting your end-of-life EV battery.

It makes sense to move a lot of load to older stationary batteries as those become more plentiful.

But more capacity is better, and getting things online sooner is better. And in 2030 almost all the capacity is going to be in non-retired packs in their original cars.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#188
This paper covers only one aspect - estimating demand. But the cost of the EV batteries is another affair. Recently it has come to light several human rights violations involved with the lithium/cobalt mining industry. Both are necessary for making batteries and other electrical components that make up rechargeable batteries.

But today, at least for the short-term, the only solution to stop those inhuman practices is to provide humanitarian aid. The proliferation of violations are at such a scale that even if some major tech players come together and decide that they should provide this humanitarian aid to the "miners", the profit margins drop drastically.

Hence EV batteries may not become viable to the end-consumers.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#189
post #165

1) This only works when the overlap peak electric demand and peak vehicle demand do not overlap. Night time, when the cars sit idle, is also a low demand time of day, and the afternoon energy demand peak coincides partially with the evening commute. 2) The loss of value to the owner based on cycles used needs to take into account that the failure of the battery in a vehicle can be what causes its final retirement, i.…

V2g has a a few challenges of course but people seem to not be aware that their EV batteries are much better than they think. The early ones from ten years ago had no battery management systems and had issues with wearing out relatively fast. But the newer ones have battery management. So, the wear and tear is a lot less these days.

A typical car battery is rated for thousands of cycles. 3000 cycles is a number you hear often. If you have an EV that has a range of 300 miles, we're talking about 900000 miles. That's more miles than the vast majority of cars will drive over their lifespan. The average driver drives less than 15000 miles per year. The car will die before the battery typically, not the other way around. And the battery isn't completely dead at that point, it should still be good for 80% of its original charge. The vast majority of EVs ever produced are still driving with their original batteries and will be for years to come.

A second point is that EV batteries are designed to discharge in a few hours to drive the car. There is no way you'd discharge at that speed via v2g. Most home connections charge/discharge only at a few kw. It's a comparatively light load for the battery and the wear and tear is pretty modest. Battery degradation happens a lot faster if you stress the battery. There are some indications that suggest that v2g discharging has only a very minimal impact on battery life. You wouldn't fully discharge the battery. Not even close.

A third point is that with smart chargers, you would be able to control when the battery is allowed to discharge and how much. A million cars contributing just a single kwh each is 1 gwh. That's a huge amount of power. You would not fully cycle the battery typically but maybe only a few percent. If you start with 3000 cycles and you use 10% of that every day (which would be a lot), you could do that for 30000 days. That's longer than most humans live.

Finally, instead of providing power to the grid, you could use a system like this to power your house and make save significant amounts of money in the evening by using your car instead of expensive grid rates using power that you got from your solar panels during the day for free.

Those savings can really add up over the years. If it worries you, you can invest in a house battery instead. In the end the argument has to be financial and v2g is probably cheaper overall than that. People are spending tens of thousands of dollars to put solar on their roofs. So, throwing their car battery in the mix is a comparatively small step and a perfectly rational thing to consider. But the numbers have to make sense for people to opt in to that.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#190
post #165

1) This only works when the overlap peak electric demand and peak vehicle demand do not overlap. Night time, when the cars sit idle, is also a low demand time of day, and the afternoon energy demand peak coincides partially with the evening commute. 2) The loss of value to the owner based on cycles used needs to take into account that the failure of the battery in a vehicle can be what causes its final retirement, i.…

And keep in mind it's to store energy from renewables (minus hydropower), i.e. mainly solar and wind. Solar is nonexistent at night. And although it varies, wind is generally strongest during the day and delivers less energy at night. But night-time is exactly when the vehicles are charged in people's homes, at least currently that's the situation and it would necessitate a ton of new infrastructure to change that. H…

Any major change is going to have problems. The green revolution isn't just one event that has failed in Germany is a progressive change.
Post reply on HN