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EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

nature.com

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Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#31

Post by _yb2s »

lja wrote: post #2

I think EV owners would need to find some level of compensation for the additional cycles they would incur. Electric vehicles are expensive because of the battery so deteriorating the life of one of the most costly parts of the car doesn't feel like a great solution.

We also need EV designs where the batteries are modular and easy to swap out. I wouldn't be interested in a deal where I was compensated financially for quickly wearing my non-replaceable car battery out, because the battery wear alters the usability of the car, e.g. I might find I can only take my family on shorter trips than planned, if my battery is now 80% of what it would have been.

I also wouldn't want the battery level timed around the grid vs my own transportation needs. What if there is suddenly a heavy demand on the grid, and now I can't take my sick family member to the hospital, because the charge was sold to the grid?

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#32

Post by throwawaaarrgh »

We're nowhere near close to home charging for the number of EVs estimated by 2030. Go ask around, very few organizations are working on it compared to public chargers. Apartment managers and condo associations aren't demanding them and only homeowners have a say, after they pay for the upgrade. Not to mention, the power companies hate the idea. They won't even let people with solar panels feed their excess power to the grid.

We would need a federal mandate to get there, and I don't see it happening.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#33

Post by gopalv »

function_seven wrote: post #16
sp332 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As this gets more popular, I guess net metering will be offered less and less. But you should still get some credit for supplying electricity to the grid.

On the contrary, I would expect to be paid higher rates for the energy I'm supplying to the grid than those I paid to charge it in the first place. Otherwise, what's the point? I'm not going to buy a kilowatt-hour high, then sell it low. Only way these grid balancing schemes work is if the pricing is real-time, and I have an opportunity to supply marginal peak demand at rates that are higher than what I paid to charg…

> I would expect to be paid higher rates for the energy I'm supplying to the grid than those I paid to charge it in the first place

The Tesla VPP[1] model was 1$ KWH to send it back, better than Net Metering which should have paid only 42c.

However, this was coordinated with PGE to match the lack of production (in advance, which is its own miracle) and unlike a car, the battery doesn't change locations or need to be unplugged at random.

[1] - https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/powerwall/own/tesla-pge...

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#34

Post by ThunderSizzle »

whazor wrote: post #20
lja wrote: post #2

I think EV owners would need to find some level of compensation for the additional cycles they would incur. Electric vehicles are expensive because of the battery so deteriorating the life of one of the most costly parts of the car doesn't feel like a great solution.

Selling electricity is compensation, like with solar panels. You only need hourly energy prices to make it profitable. Plus an app that does the profitability calculation and discharging.

Sounds similar to Uber using a contractor vehicle's hidden depreciation and maintenance to shift the real cost of their service.

I doubt the hourly price will ever truly be fair to individual car owners. Maybe we'll start to be asked whenever we plug in our phones to tip the owner of a car our electricity is coming from.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#37

Post by jackinloadup »

phkahler wrote: post #19
lja wrote: post #2

I think EV owners would need to find some level of compensation for the additional cycles they would incur. Electric vehicles are expensive because of the battery so deteriorating the life of one of the most costly parts of the car doesn't feel like a great solution.

Did you know that the standard DC chargers communicate with the vehicle using PLC (Powerline communication) chips even though that communication is not over the high power conductors? I've always had the feeling the grid operators got that included because they thought they were going to communicate directly with the battery management system to control it as they wish. It never happened and now the standard is stupi…

Assuming V2G means Vehicle to Ground, this is something I would like to see for the following use-case.

I would like to use my car battery as a temporary home battery in the inevitable case of a grid outage. This opens the option to bring energy home from another location. Reduce or eliminates the need for a battery in a grid-tied house.

Am I crazy?

Edit: Granted that doesn't mean the energy company can use my car's battery at it's whim. I think compensation would be required and would actually make a lot of sense. It isn't like the electric company could build out a battery system for cheaper. It would need to be a higher compensation than to PV though. Batteries are more expensive and should be compensated as such.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#38

Post by bryanlarsen »

lja wrote: post #2

I think EV owners would need to find some level of compensation for the additional cycles they would incur. Electric vehicles are expensive because of the battery so deteriorating the life of one of the most costly parts of the car doesn't feel like a great solution.

Assuming Tesla prices and full cycling of battery (aka from 100->0), draining a kWh puts about 2cents wear on your battery, so compensation would need to be above that price.

In practice you'd never allow your operator to drain you to 0, so 2 cents is very much on the high side.

In the California Tesla VPP trial, they pay 50 cents per kWh.

(correction: 20cents wear, not 2cents)

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#39

Post by at-fates-hands »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #18
prottog wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. This further degrades the meaning of owning private property.

Unless it's voluntary (which it darned well better be). I envision a future where individual appliances (including EVs) can opt in to spot pricing for the electricity they consume (or produce). That would naturally incentivize charging during off-peak hours and discharging during peak hours, all without requiring any government incentives or coercion. It could also be useful for other major appliances which could ben…

>> I envision a future where individual appliances (including EVs) can opt in to spot pricing for the electricity they consume (or produce).

I remember when high speed internet was coming into being and there were a lot of pundits talking about how high speed bandwidth would be sold as a commodity on the NYSE. If someone needed say an hour of high bandwidth for a video conference, they could do what you're saying, buy an hour of high speed access. Of course, high speed internet eventually became so cheap and so readily available, those ideas faded pretty fast.

I might be remembering this wrong, but wasn't Enron doing what you're talking about?

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#40

Post by ThunderSizzle »

iso1631 wrote: post #21
Am4TIfIsER0ppos wrote: post #5

Imagine the government draining your tank at the gas station instead of filling it.

Imagine the gas station selling you a tank of gas for $10 and buying it back for $15 later in the day, all while your car sits on your driveway

It will never work that way, except for the lucky few.

Have you ever tried selling books back to the school store? They'll buy it from you for $10 when you paid $100 for it. Same thing will happen for this.

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