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EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

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Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#111

Post by ericd »

PeterCorless wrote: post #90

Considering that most "EV batteries" are actually just smaller batteries glued together to bigger cells, modules and packs, I don't think this is as much of a win as people think it is. It's like saying "We can green the planet with Duracells." Ignoring what's in the batteries or what it takes to manufacture them. Or how they degrade over time. We may need to look at hybrid battery solutions with alternative energy s…

Sorry, how is the size of the individual cells relevant? Big cells are just the same sorts of cathode/anode sheets, but in larger rolls, no?

Duracells are typically single-use alkaline, so I’m also not sure why that comparison makes sense?

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#112

Post by ralph84 »

nemomarx wrote: post #104
ralph84 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

School buses seem like possibly the only real use case here, since they have a very seasonal usage pattern. For other commercial vehicles, the operators buy them to operate, not sit around and power the grid. When are they envisioned to be powering the grid?

Municipal buses are parked in depots overnight, right? That would kind of make sense - they already have to own the land for that, the vehicles already have to stay there in specific conditions, etc.

When are they supposed to charge if they're operating during the day and powering the grid at night?

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#113

Post by tuatoru »

criley2 wrote: post #30
meltyness wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible for market forces to drive batteries out of consumer reach, and then you'll own the car and rent the battery. Is that better?

I'm all for battery rental because I think battery-swaps instead of recharging is the future. The model already works in a number of other vehicle sectors. 30 minute quick charges are not the future

It'll be interesting to see the progress of Nio over the next few years. In China they have gone all in on battery swapping. Currently (mid 2022 youtube video) swaps take around 10 minutes. Nio claims gen 2 (or 3?) swap stations will cut that to about 3 minutes.

In Europe (mainly Norway atm) Nio offers the choice of owning or leasing/swapping the battery, and an overwhelming majority of customers choose to lease. This in luxury cars. (Naturally they call it Baas, battery as a service.)

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nio_Inc.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#114

Post by ratboy666 »

reportingsjr wrote: post #107
ratboy666 wrote: post #98

The elephant in the room -- unfortunately, there cannot be enough batteries made to support this. That is why I invested in Tesla -- don't care about EVs, but the battery play is good! Backup power for personal/family use? I use a Firman generator - 20 litres of fuel per day of operation at load. (here, $30 Canadian). Since the generator was only $300 and load is 3000W, this is a much better deal for me. And... at th…

> I would want LiFePo4 for this application; at current rates, a 10KWh battery runs $10,000. Where in the heck did you get that number? 10kWh of LiFePO4 batteries is more like $3k at current prices: https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-lifepower4-lithium-battery-48...

Thank you! At those prices, it begins to make sense. Man, the prices have fallen!

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#115

Post by rockinghigh »

pandama wrote: post #89

Please say a prayer for the people of the Congo who will have to mine the cobalt we want.

Battery makers are moving away from cobalt. Tesla already switched half of their batteries to a version based on lithium iron phosphate (LFP) which does not contain cobalt.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#116

Post by tuatoru »

olivermarks wrote: post #101
bryanlarsen wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's trivial to prevent the power company from doing this -- just unplug your car. They can't force anybody to participate, so if they want participation they'll have to pay and pay well.

But then you won't be able to drive your electric car because it's not charged up...

In reality they'll buy back ten percent of that tank, not all of it. You'll be able to control the amount.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#117

Post by tuatoru »

_yb2s wrote: post #31
lja wrote: post #2

I think EV owners would need to find some level of compensation for the additional cycles they would incur. Electric vehicles are expensive because of the battery so deteriorating the life of one of the most costly parts of the car doesn't feel like a great solution.

We also need EV designs where the batteries are modular and easy to swap out. I wouldn't be interested in a deal where I was compensated financially for quickly wearing my non-replaceable car battery out, because the battery wear alters the usability of the car, e.g. I might find I can only take my family on shorter trips than planned, if my battery is now 80% of what it would have been. I also wouldn't want the batt…

> We also need EV designs where the batteries are modular and easy to swap out.

Battery swapping is already a thing. In China. Nio[1] sells luxury cars and there are lots of more utilitarian vehicles that use battswap, but get no press outside China.

In the west, Ample[2] is working with manufacturers to modularize batteries and make them swappable between vehicle brands, so a "gas station" business/industry model will work.

Edit: I believe that EV manufacturers that don't offer battswap will confine themselves to the luxury niche of the market. The mass market wants low sticker prices on its vehicles.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nio_Inc.

2. https://ample.com/

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#118

Post by danans »

joshe wrote: post #85

It feels like an iceberg has been slowly turning over for the past 10 years, and is now flipping quickly. Economic growth is now more correlated with carbon reduction than increase. The useful work of preventing coal plants is over and we need to switch gears to get home appliances, ev cars, solar, wind and transmission out as quickly as possible. Environmental groups and common knowledge haven't caught up yet, but t…

> Environmental groups and common knowledge haven't caught up yet, but the fastest route to a low carbon future is a lot of factories producing ev cars, appliances, and batteries.

Not sure where you are getting this, but sounds like you just have an axe to grid.

Environmental groups have been pushing for decarbonization and accelerating the shift toward a renewable grid for forever and a day. They were the ones who educated the public about the imminence and perils of climate change, drove legislation in places like California that created the environment where EVs became popular. It wasn't Chevron, or Ford, or even Tesla that did that.

The groups that weren't onboard until now are mainstream capitalists and consumers.

> For 80% of the things we need to do, it's just people going to home depot.

As someone who has recently built an entire electrified high-performance house that consumes a fraction of the typical house's energy, I could easily buy into this, but it is flat out wrong.

What I accomplished was building a cheap-to-operate, comfortable, and healthy house for my family. It negligibly reduced the CO2 emitted on the grid, and significantly reduced the amount emitted on my behalf (by eliminating my direct natural gas usage) but I'm still reliant on a grid that is 50% fossil fuel powered.

What I did is not particularly easy to replicate either, unless you are doing a full gut remodel or new construction - so not something that trips to home depot can accomplish. The bottom line is that it's not a scalable near term solution for our climate issues.

Instead, a huge amount of what has to happen in the near term is development and deployment of firm grid scale renewables and the systems to coordinate and transmit energy between those and flexible sources of demand.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#119

Post by brianwawok »

xyzzyz wrote: post #88
georgeg23 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I calculate about $12 per Model Y full battery cycle, how did you get 2 cents? $12,000 (Model Y bat replace cost) * 300(miles for full drain)/300,000(total miles per pack) = $12 per cycle Edit: or 18 cents per kWh

18 cents per kWh is something like 5-6 times the wholesale price of kWh. This means that using EV for large scale storage is highly uneconomical.

During a brownout energy is worth a lot more, dollars to tens of dollars.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#120

Post by paraselene_ »

cschmid wrote: post #59

The Taiwanese scooter company Gogoro recently announced something similar: Their scooters come with swappable batteries that you rent. The swapping station they have throughout the city are basically walls full of batteries. Since the company owns all the batteries, they can then use them to provide power to the grid during peak load.

They also have solar panels at their batteryswap station when possible.

The problem is battery rentals, I think only NIO right now is operating battery-swapable EVs. It's easy on a scooter, but not so much on cars IMO.

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