Love subsidizing public infrastructure directly as well as paying taxes!
I too love living in a society.
EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030
41–50 of 278 posts
Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
Imagine the gas station selling you a tank of gas for $10 and buying it back for $15 later in the day, all while your car sits on your driveway
It will never work that way, except for the lucky few. Have you ever tried selling books back to the school store? They'll buy it from you for $10 when you paid $100 for it. Same thing will happen for this.
It's trivial to prevent the power company from doing this -- just unplug your car.
They can't force anybody to participate, so if they want participation they'll have to pay and pay well.
Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030
#43We're nowhere near close to home charging for the number of EVs estimated by 2030. Go ask around, very few organizations are working on it compared to public chargers. Apartment managers and condo associations aren't demanding them and only homeowners have a say, after they pay for the upgrade. Not to mention, the power companies hate the idea. They won't even let people with solar panels feed their excess power to t…
> They won't even let people with solar panels feed their excess power to the grid.
Is that true? If so, TIL...
Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
Selling electricity is compensation, like with solar panels. You only need hourly energy prices to make it profitable. Plus an app that does the profitability calculation and discharging.
Sounds similar to Uber using a contractor vehicle's hidden depreciation and maintenance to shift the real cost of their service. I doubt the hourly price will ever truly be fair to individual car owners. Maybe we'll start to be asked whenever we plug in our phones to tip the owner of a car our electricity is coming from.
If there are consistent price cycles and a good API for reading price, it should be pretty easy for an EV owner to control how much they interact with the arbitrage opportunities with some simple rules. Ex. "only sell if it cost at least 15% less to charge", "always charge to X%", "charge to 70% if The aesthetic vibe of having an autonomous energy trading bot in my garage is attractive to me.
Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030
#45I think EV owners would need to find some level of compensation for the additional cycles they would incur. Electric vehicles are expensive because of the battery so deteriorating the life of one of the most costly parts of the car doesn't feel like a great solution.
Assuming Tesla prices and full cycling of battery (aka from 100->0), draining a kWh puts about 2cents wear on your battery, so compensation would need to be above that price. In practice you'd never allow your operator to drain you to 0, so 2 cents is very much on the high side. In the California Tesla VPP trial, they pay 50 cents per kWh. (correction: 20cents wear, not 2cents)
I calculate about $12 per Model Y full battery cycle, how did you get 2 cents?
$12,000 (Model Y bat replace cost) * 300(miles for full drain)/300,000(total miles per pack)
= $12 per cycle
Edit: or 18 cents per kWh
Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
Did you know that the standard DC chargers communicate with the vehicle using PLC (Powerline communication) chips even though that communication is not over the high power conductors? I've always had the feeling the grid operators got that included because they thought they were going to communicate directly with the battery management system to control it as they wish. It never happened and now the standard is stupi…
Assuming V2G means Vehicle to Ground, this is something I would like to see for the following use-case. I would like to use my car battery as a temporary home battery in the inevitable case of a grid outage. This opens the option to bring energy home from another location. Reduce or eliminates the need for a battery in a grid-tied house. Am I crazy? Edit: Granted that doesn't mean the energy company can use my car's…
V2G = vehicle to grid. It’s quite possible for this to operate as a backup battery, but like a Powerwall it requires extra “gateway” hardware to ensure that your house is isolated from the grid when the battery is discharging.
V2L (vehicle to load) is a simpler form that lets you power 115/230V appliances directly from the vehicle. Quite a few EVs (Hyundai, Ford, etc) already support V2L.
Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
Did you know that the standard DC chargers communicate with the vehicle using PLC (Powerline communication) chips even though that communication is not over the high power conductors? I've always had the feeling the grid operators got that included because they thought they were going to communicate directly with the battery management system to control it as they wish. It never happened and now the standard is stupi…
Assuming V2G means Vehicle to Ground, this is something I would like to see for the following use-case. I would like to use my car battery as a temporary home battery in the inevitable case of a grid outage. This opens the option to bring energy home from another location. Reduce or eliminates the need for a battery in a grid-tied house. Am I crazy? Edit: Granted that doesn't mean the energy company can use my car's…
That's not crazy, it's actually a publicized optional feature on the F-150 Lightning, and the F-150 hybrid has an optional 240V 30A output that can be used as a home backup as well (although that'd be a bit more manual).
Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030
#48[dead]
Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
Assuming Tesla prices and full cycling of battery (aka from 100->0), draining a kWh puts about 2cents wear on your battery, so compensation would need to be above that price. In practice you'd never allow your operator to drain you to 0, so 2 cents is very much on the high side. In the California Tesla VPP trial, they pay 50 cents per kWh. (correction: 20cents wear, not 2cents)
I calculate about $12 per Model Y full battery cycle, how did you get 2 cents? $12,000 (Model Y bat replace cost) * 300(miles for full drain)/300,000(total miles per pack) = $12 per cycle Edit: or 18 cents per kWh
Using your numbers: 300000 miles / 320 miles/cycle = 938 cycles. 938 cycles * 72kWh = 67500 kWh. $12000 / 67500 = 18 cents.
Dunno where I got my 2 cents from, that calculation was done 2 months ago.
Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
I calculate about $12 per Model Y full battery cycle, how did you get 2 cents? $12,000 (Model Y bat replace cost) * 300(miles for full drain)/300,000(total miles per pack) = $12 per cycle Edit: or 18 cents per kWh
Using your numbers: 300000 miles / 320 miles/cycle = 938 cycles. 938 cycles * 72kWh = 67500 kWh. $12000 / 67500 = 18 cents. Dunno where I got my 2 cents from, that calculation was done 2 months ago.
I agree with your 18 cents/kWh. That's slightly more than the average cost of electricity in the US?..
That is interesting, that means for home-charging your electric cost (per mile) is about equal to the battery degradation cost.
Thats 2x cost than most think.