Imagine the government draining your tank at the gas station instead of filling it.
Imagine the gas station selling you a tank of gas for $10 and buying it back for $15 later in the day, all while your car sits on your driveway
EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030
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Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030
#22I think EV owners would need to find some level of compensation for the additional cycles they would incur. Electric vehicles are expensive because of the battery so deteriorating the life of one of the most costly parts of the car doesn't feel like a great solution.
1. Core charge when recycling
2. Time-of-use electricity rates. Up to the customer to choose to install load shifting equipment
Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030
#23I think EV owners would need to find some level of compensation for the additional cycles they would incur. Electric vehicles are expensive because of the battery so deteriorating the life of one of the most costly parts of the car doesn't feel like a great solution.
This makes much more sense with large lifepo4 chemistry batteries that are expected to outlive the car by a wide margin.
Lifepo4 batteries > 50kwh should easily handle 500,000 miles.
Higher performance lithium ion will degrade at a rate faster than any expected return from a scheme like this.
At least in Northern California it’s now cheaper for me to run solar+battery off grid than to pay pge. Lifepo4 pushes it over the edge into profitability.
If off-grid is competitive, selling at peak prices is a no brainer.
Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030
#24Love subsidizing public infrastructure directly as well as paying taxes!
This is the future, like it or not. There’s a lot of energy tied up in batteries, or at least their can be. And until we solve the problem of harnessing intermittent energy sources for when they aren’t generating energy, we aren’t going zero emissions.
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Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030
#25I think EV owners would need to find some level of compensation for the additional cycles they would incur. Electric vehicles are expensive because of the battery so deteriorating the life of one of the most costly parts of the car doesn't feel like a great solution.
This makes much more sense with large lifepo4 chemistry batteries that are expected to outlive the car by a wide margin. Lifepo4 batteries > 50kwh should easily handle 500,000 miles. Higher performance lithium ion will degrade at a rate faster than any expected return from a scheme like this. At least in Northern California it’s now cheaper for me to run solar+battery off grid than to pay pge. Lifepo4 pushes it over…
I have 100k miles on my 2018 Model S having Supercharged it the majority of the time the last four years. It has only 6% battery degradation of the 100kw pack. Tesla warranties their powerwalls for 15 years when configured as part of their aggregated virtual power plants. The batteries are demonstrated to be durable.
New LFP chemistries that are heavier but more stable are ideal for stationary storage and high cycle counts, but the evidence shows in general that these packs are built for longevity (with very occasional early failures). You could probably do well buying a salvage Tesla and shucking the pack for working modules and coming out ahead economically (safety warning, do at your own risk, etc) if you don’t want or can’t get dedicated stationary storage (although it comes with generous federal, state, and utility subsidies in California).
Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030
#26Earlier quoted context omitted.
As this gets more popular, I guess net metering will be offered less and less. But you should still get some credit for supplying electricity to the grid.
On the contrary, I would expect to be paid higher rates for the energy I'm supplying to the grid than those I paid to charge it in the first place. Otherwise, what's the point? I'm not going to buy a kilowatt-hour high, then sell it low. Only way these grid balancing schemes work is if the pricing is real-time, and I have an opportunity to supply marginal peak demand at rates that are higher than what I paid to charg…
It's worth pointing out that Tesla's Virtual Power Plant in California -- which is used primarily in emergency events -- compensates owners $2/kWh. [1]
Obviously, that rate is not going to be sustainable for routine energy storage, but PG&E is already compensating EV owners a substantial amount for peak electricity needs.
[1] https://electrek.co/2022/09/02/tesla-virtual-power-plant-gro...
Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030
#27Imagine the government draining your tank at the gas station instead of filling it.
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Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree. This further degrades the meaning of owning private property.
Unless it's voluntary (which it darned well better be). I envision a future where individual appliances (including EVs) can opt in to spot pricing for the electricity they consume (or produce). That would naturally incentivize charging during off-peak hours and discharging during peak hours, all without requiring any government incentives or coercion. It could also be useful for other major appliances which could ben…
Lots of now-compulsory things started out as voluntary.
Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030
#29Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030
#30Love subsidizing public infrastructure directly as well as paying taxes!
It's possible for market forces to drive batteries out of consumer reach, and then you'll own the car and rent the battery. Is that better?
I'm all for battery rental because I think battery-swaps instead of recharging is the future. The model already works in a number of other vehicle sectors.
30 minute quick charges are not the future