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MacBook Pro featuring M2 Pro and M2 Max

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Re: MacBook Pro featuring M2 Pro and M2 Max

#501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things may be great on the high end of Apple's M1/M2 laptops given they actually have enough ram for simple tasks. But those are also insanely expensive. At the low end Apple is actively ripping off users providing computers which can't even edit photos. My father, a long time apple user, decided to get an Apple M1 to replace his old Apple macbook. He bought the M1 8GB model (without consulting me). Turns out that th…

This is kind of a crazy story to me, and likely pointing to other issues. The "4GB just to run the OS" is probably just macOS preemptively caching... and all Macs use swap extensively so using e.g. 10GB of memory actively is totally fine. I've run out of memory before, but only with serious usage (100s of tabs, VSCode, a 100 MB+ pdf open, etc), and even then there was no actual crashes, I was told that I was using to…

To be fair I have a work-provided MacBook Pro (Intel to be fair) with 8GB of RAM and it's borderline unusable.

If I didn't have experience with higher-specced Macs in the past the experience would be enough to make me swear off ever using Macs again.

Re: MacBook Pro featuring M2 Pro and M2 Max

#502
post #16

New Mac mini with the M2 Pro maxes out at 32GB memory, that's quite disappointing compared to the Macbook Pro's 96GB. On the other hand, my M2 Macbook Air is one of the best purchases I've made in a long time, great fanless laptop.

The M2 MBA is probably closest to my perfect laptop. Thin, no moving parts (no fan), very fast, 24GB RAM, super long battery life. I love it.

My personal machine is a 2014 13" MBP. I haven't needed to replace it, but that time is coming relatively soon. I've been contemplating just going with an MBA instead of a MBP for my next machine. I don't do so much heavy lifting that I think I need it. It's a weird feeling because I think of myself as a "power user" and in the past that always meant getting the most computer you could afford. Now I'm not so sure...

Re: MacBook Pro featuring M2 Pro and M2 Max

#503
post #322

If Hector Martin doesn't say that they fixed the memory-mapping bug in their PCIe controller[0] I think it's safe to say that we're not getting a new Mac Pro this year. And to be honest, the whole concept of a Mac Pro goes against the design philosophy of Apple Silicon. The whole point of those chips is to maximize efficiency by having everything on-die or very close to the chip. For example, the M2 Max has like eigh…

> This is why Thunderbolt eGPUs don't work - the M1 and M2 can't actually write to the memory on the GPUs. I thought the major reason was simply lack of drivers. When I consider that I can use direct mapped M.2 storage over Thunderbolt; or use 100GBit network cards over Thunderbolt 4 (with a PCIe adapter) I wouldn't think that I was limited to mapping memory in the SoC.

I'm skipping over a few details here[0].

ARM has several different classes of memory access mappings; the normal one is called... well, Normal. I/O and storage is mapped using Device mappings, which don't cache reads and can be further divided into how little the CPU is allowed to try and optimize writes[1]. GPUs need Normal memory because applications written for modern graphics APIs expect to be able to map GPU memory into themselves and read and write to it like CPU memory.

The ARM spec for I/O is that you are always allowed to use whatever mapping type the device needs, and that less-strict mappings should, in the worst case, "fall back" to stricter ones. Apple handles this differently; the SoC fabric requires you use the specific device mapping that it expects for a particular device, and if you try to use something looser or stricter than what it wants, it will drop the transaction and raise an exception. And of course the SoC fabric will not allow Normal memory reads or writes to hit a PCIe device.

As far as the Asahi Linux team is aware, there isn't a way from the CPU to turn off this behavior. It's also not the only implementation of PCIe on ARM that locks out PCIe memory. Raspberry Pi 4's PCIe support[3] also has the same design flaw. If it was just a driver problem, someone would have ported AMDGPU to ARM and ran it on Asahi Linux by now, and we'd be posting cool benchmarks between the internal and external GPUs.

You don't notice this problem for I/O or storage because those never need to be mapped as Normal.

[0] And probably still skipping over more details, since I'm not an ARM expert. This is just what I've gleaned from reading other kernel developers' Mastodon and Twitter feeds.

[1] Which, BTW, the M1 also screws up. You're supposed to be able to pick posted writes[2] or non-posted writes; Apple Silicon specifically refuses transaction types that don't match what the hardware expects.

See https://lore.kernel.org/linux-arm-kernel/20210120132717.3958... for more info.

[2] Write instructions finish before the write is actually sent to the device.

[3] Yes, it has PCIe. One lane of it, used to drive an external USB 3 controller. You can of course repurpose it for other things.

Re: MacBook Pro featuring M2 Pro and M2 Max

#504
post #405
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I switched to Asahi Linux on my M1. It’s becoming the perfect experience for me: Apple hardware with an OS without bloat. (Yes, many things don’t work yet. For personal use it’s fine though)

I’ll never be overly critical of anyone’s computing choices, but this just seems like the worst of both worlds to me unless you specifically want to tinker with Apple-ARM Linux. Why not Linux on much better supported hardware from Lenovo or Dell? It just doesn’t make sense to me to buy such an expensive computer only to remove a core part of the package, Mac OS.

Because Lenovo, Dell don't make laptops as sleek as Apple's

I still ditched Apple though, I don't regret having traded battery life for compatibility. Arm64 remains a pain over 2 years later and for many years to come.

Re: MacBook Pro featuring M2 Pro and M2 Max

#505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an M1 mini and an M1 Pro 14”, both with 16GB. I upgraded both to Ventura 13.1 and have really had zero issues with a variety of hardware setups. The software _design_ however… yes, Apple is sliding. The new Settings is a mess. It’s so disorienting, even when I put aside the fact that I had used the old, NeXT-derived one for 20 years. You just can’t find anything without search, which adds steps. There is a rel…

The settings window in MacOS needed to evolve IMHO. Just like the old disgusting confusing Windows settings/profilers/doodads, it worked only for old Mac power users. When the young audience is coming from iOS, MacOS has to satisfy what they’re used to. And Apple needs to stay consistent to not become like Windows. As I age and switch constantly between OSes and devices for work, search has increasingly become my pri…

Yeah, I can see this. However, I’ve been on iOS from the start (as a developer) and there is not a lot of sense to why some settings are organized the way that they are.

- “General” is a trash fire of hodgepodge

- “Home Screen” & “Wallpaper” are separate top-levels

In general, the top level items are grouped by task, but the tasks aren’t labeled but instead implied:

  - Radio signals (Airplane Mode, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth)
  
  - Noise & distractions (Notifications, Sounds, Focus, Screen Time)
  
  - Input, output, and appearance (General, Control Center, Display, … Touch ID, …)
  
  - Purchasing (App Store, Wallet & Apple Pay)
  
  - Apple apps (except for the first, Passwords)… Mail, Contacts, Calendar, …
  
  - Apple apps with media (Music, TV, Photos, …)
  
  - All the other apps
This is on iOS. Is it too much to ask for some commitment to naming of these sections?

Re: MacBook Pro featuring M2 Pro and M2 Max

#507

> With up to 96GB of unified memory in the M2 Max model, creators can work on scenes so large that PC laptops can’t even run them.4 ... > 4. Testing was conducted by Apple in November and December 2022 using preproduction 16-inch MacBook Pro systems with Apple M2 Max, 12-core CPU, 38-core GPU, 96GB of RAM, and 8TB SSD, as well as a production Intel Core i9-based PC system with NVIDIA Quadro RTX 6000 graphics with 24G…

Yeah I thought this was quite disappointing too. "PCs can't even run this!" ....when using a PC with specs too low to run the specific thing we chose to do. "Mac's can't even run notepad.exe!" would be fair using Apple's approach to these kind of claims (i.e. choosing to run software with requirements that you know they cannot meet)

In fairness, Apple's claim is that no laptop can do it, and to that angle they are correct.

Re: MacBook Pro featuring M2 Pro and M2 Max

#508

> With up to 96GB of unified memory in the M2 Max model, creators can work on scenes so large that PC laptops can’t even run them.4 ... > 4. Testing was conducted by Apple in November and December 2022 using preproduction 16-inch MacBook Pro systems with Apple M2 Max, 12-core CPU, 38-core GPU, 96GB of RAM, and 8TB SSD, as well as a production Intel Core i9-based PC system with NVIDIA Quadro RTX 6000 graphics with 24G…

Well, to be fair, if you go to NVIDIA's site for "professional desktop workstations", the Quadro RTX 6000 is precisely what they show first: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/design-visualization/desktop-gr...

These are desktop cards. Apple is comparing laptops to laptops.

Re: MacBook Pro featuring M2 Pro and M2 Max

#509
post #183
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iTerm2 and lima [1] with a ARM64 Linux virtual machine w/ Rosetta (so I can still run x86_64 Linux code!) enabled me to fall in love with my MacBook Pro in this regard. i feel more productive than on a Linux machine now. MacOS is not without its developer power tools, if you dig around enough! [1] https://github.com/lima-vm/lima

It would be perfect if Rosetta supported AVX instructions. For instance, I could just install pre-built tensorflow binary packages in a x64 container on Lima then.

Man, I wish Rosetta (or Microsoft's ARM emulation) could support AVX. I understand it might be a patent issue. It's the one significant thing keeping me from running some of the software I'd like to on my MBP.

Re: MacBook Pro featuring M2 Pro and M2 Max

#510
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Def the opposite experience for me software wise. Latest joy is chrome hanging whenever tabs are moved. Things randomly seem to crash all the time. Maybe it’s normal for OS X but my Linux experience is pretty much the opposite - rock solid, everything is fast, and nothing breaks. Granted the hardware does seem really good (except for slow anything to do with x86 and a useless GPU that can’t play games or do VR).

For me, it's the WiFi that is completely botched. The status bar will frequently display incorrect statuses and trying to select a network from the status bar hardly ever works. I have to go into system preferences which has a tendency to totally freeze up for minutes at a time when I select the network tab. Then it'll occasionally get into a state where it tells me it's connected to the network but doesn't have Inte…

File a bug. https://feedbackassistant.apple.com

(Or call support, I guess.)

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