The myth of Japan's failure • Hacker News Board

Re: The myth of Japan's failure

#81

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jan 08, 2012, 9:44 PM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #71

philwelch wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Bushmen were some of the last people on earth to live as hunter-gatherers, in largely the same way that all humans did before we fucked everything up with civilization and technology. They lived very communal lives, but they didn't work anywhere close to 40 hours a week, and spent most of the day chatting and making music. They seemed pretty happy until the civilizations around them came in and ruined their cultu…

That's also completely controlled by where you live. There are a few places on Earth naturally abundant enough(and with climate friendly enough) to support a population with less than 40 hours per week per person, but I'd bet most of the planet doesn't fall into that category.

[deleted]

Re: The myth of Japan's failure

#82

Post by rdtsc » Sun, Jan 08, 2012, 10:09 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #66

rdtsc wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But also once someone loses their job, diet, stress, mood & motivation would go down the hill. So the chance of getting sick and needing a doctor would go up, which, interestingly enough is when Americans get denied access to health care. They eventually end up in emergency care and then declare bankruptcy because of the cost (therefore me using the "dysfunctional" label for it). But the point was that it is hard to…

I'm just saying that it's one of many factors, and I'm skeptical about overstating its importance because topical political issues are almost always overstated in importance. If we didn't spend a good chunk of the last four years, as a country, angrily arguing about socialized medicine, then socialized medicine would likely not be the first thing to pop in your mind as the most important factor. It's probably just as…

Not for me. Medicine has been in my mind ever since I made the mistake of going to the emergency room with a terrible cold when I was here as a student. I ended up paying $400 for 1 pill of codeine, waiting 2 hours and be seen by some intern. $400 in 1995 for a student who makes $6.50 in a university library part time -- is fucked up. I don't care how it is justified and explained. And that is just my experience. There are a lot worse. So I would have been railing about it anyway whether we had the debate or now. I have been mentioning that for years.

Re: The myth of Japan's failure

#83

Post by kijin » Sun, Jan 08, 2012, 10:23 PM UTC

borism wrote: post #75

yummyfajitas wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument holds little water these days: it is next to impossible to hide information about the true state of a country when access to information is so easy thanks to the Internet. It's actually quite easy: Step 1: recognize that gathering macroeconomic statistics is really hard. One example: if people previously spent $3 on salsa, but now they spend $5 on guacamole, what is the inflation rate for mexican dips?…

except salsa and guacamole are interchangeable. it doesn't seem to me you can easily exchange one component of CPI with another?

What Americans typically refer to as "salsa" is not interchangeable with guacamole.

Re: The myth of Japan's failure

#84

Post by bane » Sun, Jan 08, 2012, 10:57 PM UTC

microarchitect wrote: post #36

bane wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It reminds me of my first time visiting South Korea. While there I observed people who's job it was to wear a cute uniform and bow to cars entering the parking garage at the local department store, people hired by companies to stand in the aisles at the local supermarket holding packs of coffee or shampoo or whatever and dance to loud techno music (usually young women in short skirts and thigh high boots, bizarre to…

A general point to keep in mind here is that unemployment numbers are hard to compare. The best example is a country like India which has no social security net to speak of, so if you're unemployed and are not rich you will actually die of hunger. Which means that the unemployment rate is actually the percentage of people who can afford to stay unemployed . A less drastic comparison might be between unemployed people…

"I'm not going to judge whether these jobs are meaningless, but I'm pretty sure they produce a drastic improvement in quality of life for those who are employed in these jobs."

You're right of course, "meaningless" is probably too hard a harsh word choice. Looked at another way, dancing girls promoting powdered coffee mix probably moves a lot of coffee. And having a guy operate the elevator button made a 3-star hotel feel like a 4-star. In fact, one thing I notice every time I'm in Korea is that the level of customer service is generally very high simply because there's so many people working at places.

I was thinking of this the other day when I was in a Home Depot and couldn't find somebody to help me find a dryer vent for love or country. "If I was in Korea I'd have half a dozen employees showing me the aisle, and dancing girls promoting the product" I was left thinking.

Re: The myth of Japan's failure

#85

Post by nl » Sun, Jan 08, 2012, 11:07 PM UTC

gwern wrote: post #67

surrealize wrote: post #25

The overall point of the editorial might be right, but some of the metrics that it mentions are random or problematic. The number of high-rise buildings constructed? That says more about how little buildable land Japan has than it says about the strength of the Japanese economy. The article also mentions electricity "output" (a.k.a. consumption), which has grown faster in Japan than in the US. The article spins it as…

> And some of it is just strange. Michelin ratings as a measure of the strength of an economy? Cultural factors matter as much as economic strength, there. I was in a theater on the 4th to watch _Nausicaa_, and one of the previews was for a documentary about some sushi chef. Breathlessly it mentioned that he was the first Japanese restaurant to receive 3 Michelin stars. I was a little astonished. 'Yes, I know 3 Miche…

Michelin Guides only cover Europe (including the UK), the US (not Canada), Japan, Hong Kong & Macau: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelin_Guide#Other_ratings

Re: The myth of Japan's failure

#86

Post by nikatwork » Sun, Jan 08, 2012, 11:14 PM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #71

philwelch wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Bushmen were some of the last people on earth to live as hunter-gatherers, in largely the same way that all humans did before we fucked everything up with civilization and technology. They lived very communal lives, but they didn't work anywhere close to 40 hours a week, and spent most of the day chatting and making music. They seemed pretty happy until the civilizations around them came in and ruined their cultu…

That's also completely controlled by where you live. There are a few places on Earth naturally abundant enough(and with climate friendly enough) to support a population with less than 40 hours per week per person, but I'd bet most of the planet doesn't fall into that category.

The Bushmen live in Africa. I would hardly call that environment abundant with a friendly climate.

Re: The myth of Japan's failure

#87

Post by loso » Sun, Jan 08, 2012, 11:14 PM UTC

dev_jim wrote: post #63

There's a lot to admin about Japan, but this article is hackery at best and deceptive at worst. The article is almost solely focused on Tokyo. Yes, Tokyo is still doing well. It's still one of the richest cities in the world. But Tokyo cannot be held up as "Japan", just as New York cannot be used as representative of the entire U.S. Life expectancy in the U.S. has gone up by 4.43 years since 1980. All rich-world coun…

I thought something was off when reading the article. You pretty much put it in words for me. The focusing on Tokyo was especially blatant.

Re: The myth of Japan's failure

#88

Post by georgieporgie » Sun, Jan 08, 2012, 11:17 PM UTC

gahahaha wrote: post #54

mbesto wrote: post #6

Let's look at one metric that supersedes all (in my opinion): According to, Japan's unemployment rate has been no higher than 6% over the last 32 years (1980-2012).It's currently at 4.5%[1] Compare that to the US, who's unemployment rate has been at worst 10% over the last 32 years (1980-2012). It's currently at 8.5%[2] Why does this supersede most other stats? Because we simply need to keep people busy "doing things…

The unemployment rate in Japan is low, but the (arguably more important) labor force participation rate has been dropping a lot lately: http://i.imgur.com/WJiUx.jpg Of course, a big explanation for the lower labor force participation rate is the aging population.

In addition, the type of employment has changed in Japan. The career job is gone, replaced by temp work.

Re: The myth of Japan's failure

#89

Post by jacques_chester » Sun, Jan 08, 2012, 11:35 PM UTC

wisty wrote: post #45

bane wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It reminds me of my first time visiting South Korea. While there I observed people who's job it was to wear a cute uniform and bow to cars entering the parking garage at the local department store, people hired by companies to stand in the aisles at the local supermarket holding packs of coffee or shampoo or whatever and dance to loud techno music (usually young women in short skirts and thigh high boots, bizarre to…

All marketing is "keep people busy" work. In Australia, people don't like service-people. There's this weird pseudo-independence thing, where we'd like to believe that we haven't oppressed any workers to get our cup of coffee. It's not a problem if the coffee was grown by plantation slaves, and made by a Philippino guest-worker on an exploitive H1B1 equivalent visa, but the waitress had better be quick, efficient, an…

Having worked in retail and service jobs, I can tell you that a generous fraction of Australian consumers rely on the lowly checkout chick / salesman / service assistant / phone operator etc as someone to prop up their self-worth through condescension.

Re: The myth of Japan's failure

#90

Post by learc83 » Sun, Jan 08, 2012, 11:45 PM UTC

nikatwork wrote: post #86

learc83 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's also completely controlled by where you live. There are a few places on Earth naturally abundant enough(and with climate friendly enough) to support a population with less than 40 hours per week per person, but I'd bet most of the planet doesn't fall into that category.

The Bushmen live in Africa. I would hardly call that environment abundant with a friendly climate.

It is very abundant and has a very friendly climate relative to a great deal of the planet.

By friendly climate, I don't mean pleasant 72 degrees year round. I mean you don't have to spend all summer chopping wood, and preserving food so you can survive through the winter, which is a vast swath of the planet.