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Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

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Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#71

Post by andrewflnr »

pessimizer wrote: post #33
thinking4real wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s hilarious watching all the posters tell OP he’s mistaken about a life experience he had. Hubris abound.

> It’s hilarious watching all the posters tell OP he’s mistaken about a life experience he had. This is a pretty bullshit reading of the comment you replied to, which was about the nature of "rights" as a social agreement rather than something natural.

Said comment seized on one phrase, jumped to a conclusion about what the top-level's friend's actual misunderstanding was, and chastized them for not agreeing with their guess. We don't know if the top-level commenter's judgment is correct, but the rest of us certainly don't have enough evidence to be so confident they're wrong.

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#72

Post by AdrianB1 »

m0ntag wrote: post #40
AdrianB1 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parents lived in Jordan (as expats) for over 30 years. Back in 1980, Jordan was a very modern country and had great rulers, my father was in good relations with one of the king's sons (I don't remember which one) and he met the king several times, he was speaking highly about them and he considered Jordan one of the most modern and free Muslim countries. At the same time, rights and freedoms are limited in most of…

Just because everyone is doing it, doesn't make it right. Though I do not see how mixing the state with any religion would help in this regard. But sure, let's bash all authoritarianism to avoid hypocrisy :D

I don't see how "everyone is doing it" is your reading of "some rights are more of an exception than a rule". What is the "do" part that everyone does? Not having it? The history is that there were no rights, then in some places some rights appeared, that means some countries are more or less behind, but not "doing it".

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#74

Post by AdrianB1 »

kmeisthax wrote: post #51
AdrianB1 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parents lived in Jordan (as expats) for over 30 years. Back in 1980, Jordan was a very modern country and had great rulers, my father was in good relations with one of the king's sons (I don't remember which one) and he met the king several times, he was speaking highly about them and he considered Jordan one of the most modern and free Muslim countries. At the same time, rights and freedoms are limited in most of…

>There is no first amendment anywhere outside USA This is wrong on every level except technical[0]. While other countries in Europe aren't as free-speech extremist as the US, there are still protections on speech in those countries. The biggest exception to that I can see in France or Germany would be the constitutional prohibitions on being a literal Nazi [1]. I Googled "romanian arrested for opinions" and got a bun…

Who was talking about Tate or "adequacy" of the second? It was just a list of examples of rights that don't exist outside USA, not about effectiveness, morality, adequacy etc. Want it or not, the world is mostly not free.

Romanian law: Law 107 of 2006. UK: you can even find even lawyer's explanations for that prayer thing, with full details, just look for it.

Please explain how most of European countries, for example, have free speech. Most don't, Australia and Canada don't, who is left ... China or North Korea?

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#75

Post by [deleted] »

WeylandYutani wrote: post #34
rayiner wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> His English is very good, but the concept of inalienable rights, freedom of speech, and freedom to yell at our politicians .. he was intellectually incapable of understanding this, his society had brainwashed him so thoroughly. I don’t think that’s a charitable or logical framing of his point of view. Unless you’re religious—which the American framers were—“inalienable rights” are an illogical concept. In the state…

You will get a lot of hate for this but I must admit: What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia? Individuality seems to have been invented and embraced by European and American intelligentsia.

[deleted]

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#76

Post by jdminhbg »

WeylandYutani wrote: post #34
rayiner wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> His English is very good, but the concept of inalienable rights, freedom of speech, and freedom to yell at our politicians .. he was intellectually incapable of understanding this, his society had brainwashed him so thoroughly. I don’t think that’s a charitable or logical framing of his point of view. Unless you’re religious—which the American framers were—“inalienable rights” are an illogical concept. In the state…

You will get a lot of hate for this but I must admit: What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia? Individuality seems to have been invented and embraced by European and American intelligentsia.

> What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia?

Joseph Henrich says it’s the medieval church’s prohibition on cousin marriage, which dissolved the strong kinship bonds that dominate the rest of the world. He has a book on the subject called The WEIRDest People In The World which is good.

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#77

Post by dang »

blhblah12345 wrote: post #4

[flagged]

Ok, but please don't post generic religious or nationalistic flamewar comments to HN. I'm sure you didn't intend it that way, but that's what this is—especially when it gets upvoted to the top of the page, as these things often do.

We're trying to avoid generic ideological tangents in general because they're the most predictable sort of internet discussion. The same points simply repeat in endless circulation. That may be fine for certain kinds of conversation but it's not fine for a forum dedicated to intellectual curiosity, which is served by diving in into what is specific and different about a situation.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Edit: actually, given how badly you broke the site guidelines with religious flamewar elsewhere in the thread, I've banned the account. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34404910, and please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with.

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#78

Post by JumpCrisscross »

blhblah12345 wrote: post #60
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can’t be both Islamic and secular at the same time Yes. There is a difference between an Islamic nation and a nation of Muslims.

Currently, there is not, as all nations of muslims are ruled by a-secular, illiberal dictators.

> all nations of muslims are ruled by a-secular, illiberal dictators

This describes none of the Arab monarchies. Neither does it describe Iran, Afghanistan or Pakistan. (Indonesia and Malaysia are political science’s Rorschach tests.)

Secular dictatorships in the Muslim world are the exception, unless we’re using highly unorthodox definitions of secularity or dictatorship. (Secular government in Muslim-majority countries is common; most are not dictatorships [1].)

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_secularism

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#79

Post by JumpCrisscross »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #57
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia? The Black Death increased labour’s bargaining power right before the Industrial Revolution. It’s a lucky set of quirks that gave Enlightenment-era ideas fertile soil to land on.

The end of the Black Death occurred over 400 years before the start of the Industrial Revolution.

> end of the Black Death occurred over 400 years before the start of the Industrial Revolution

“Right before” was hyperbole. The population, and in particular, labor effects, were nevertheless persistent. Western labor was anomalously expensive.

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