Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020 • Hacker News Board

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#61

Post by jacooper » Mon, Jan 16, 2023, 7:42 PM UTC

blhblah12345 wrote: post #42

jacooper wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the locals don't want to, and you know it. Ask anybody in the streets about their opinions of gays, and you shall get your answer. It may be fundamental freedom for you, but for them its an outrageous act that deserves punishment. Don't like it, don't stay there, simple.

Meanwhile, Turkish men are the most metrosexual in the world, and let's just say it 's easier to get laid in Taksim than it is in the Castro. I feel that Istanbul is actually a far gayer city than San Francisco, but everybody stays in the closet in order to survive. You have a funny concept of free. If I am not free to be exactly who I am, then I am not free. If I am forced to follow a religion under penalty of death…

Then don't.

The entire point of democracy is it allows commoners to decide regulation, and you bet that if there was ever a true democracy in the Arab world, gays won't be welcome in it either.

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#62

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 16, 2023, 7:45 PM UTC

blhblah12345 wrote: post #30

__derek__ wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can go much further, that would be appreciated because this comment was not substantive or constructive.

How was this not substantive? I gave you a very solid example of how in one large province of Indonesia, democracy and the rule of law were entirely removed and put in the hand of islamic "leaders".

[deleted]

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#63

Post by alephnerd » Mon, Jan 16, 2023, 7:47 PM UTC

blhblah12345 wrote: post #20

IAmGraydon wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indonesia is not an Islamic nation even though a majority of its population is Islamic and there is some influence of Islam in their politics. Malaysia is, as you stated, an Islamic nation. It is not secular, however, as they consider Islam to be their official religion.

How is Indonesia not an Islamic nation when now several of its provinces are legally ruled by shariah law interpreted by mullahs, not by representatives or leaders elected by the people, and when the government makes federal (parliamentary?) laws enforcing various muslim beliefs and laws?

Aceh is a weird exception in Indonesia. They were only intregrated into Dutch Indonesia in early 20th century and always had a tenuous relationship with the various Malay states and a very strong political and cultural connection with Turkiye (being a vassal of the Ottoman Empire at various times in it's history).

Also, the parts of Indonesia I've been to (mostly Java) feels much less "Islamic" on the ground than Malaysia. Yes I see hijabs fairly often, but to me at least, Islamic motifs seemed much more prominent in Malaysia and even Singapore than Java.

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#64

Post by throwaway09223 » Mon, Jan 16, 2023, 7:47 PM UTC

NikolaNovak wrote: post #23

blhblah12345 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"One person" Like I said I've been in the islamic world for a decade. I've studied Arabic/Turkish music in Iran, Egypt, Turkiye, Azerbaijan, Lebanon, Jordan and Israel. It's not like "I met one muslim". I have spent about 20 hours per week for the past decade teaching Syrian and Yemeni refugees in Istanbul and Ankara. Please point me to a democratic, secular islamic nation. Just one? As far as I can tell this only ex…

I get your point but isn't there a built-in inconsistency in term "Islamic secular state"? I. E. Would a secular state by definition not be Islamic (or Christian etc)? Or do you mean a state with predominantly Islamic population that is democratic and secular?

Without getting into the semantics it's valuable to note that Wikipedia has a list of religious democracies, both historic and contemporary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_democracy

Note that several of these are Islamic.

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#65

Post by CyanBird » Mon, Jan 16, 2023, 7:49 PM UTC

WeylandYutani wrote: post #34

rayiner wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> His English is very good, but the concept of inalienable rights, freedom of speech, and freedom to yell at our politicians .. he was intellectually incapable of understanding this, his society had brainwashed him so thoroughly. I don’t think that’s a charitable or logical framing of his point of view. Unless you’re religious—which the American framers were—“inalienable rights” are an illogical concept. In the state…

You will get a lot of hate for this but I must admit: What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia? Individuality seems to have been invented and embraced by European and American intelligentsia.

>What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia?

University level international relations courses generally start on the 30years war, I feel it is appropriate for that to be considered "the rough start" of "honest to god modernity" yeah

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#66

Post by alephnerd » Mon, Jan 16, 2023, 7:49 PM UTC

blhblah12345 wrote: post #42

jacooper wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the locals don't want to, and you know it. Ask anybody in the streets about their opinions of gays, and you shall get your answer. It may be fundamental freedom for you, but for them its an outrageous act that deserves punishment. Don't like it, don't stay there, simple.

Meanwhile, Turkish men are the most metrosexual in the world, and let's just say it 's easier to get laid in Taksim than it is in the Castro. I feel that Istanbul is actually a far gayer city than San Francisco, but everybody stays in the closet in order to survive. You have a funny concept of free. If I am not free to be exactly who I am, then I am not free. If I am forced to follow a religion under penalty of death…

I've heard that from a couple Gay friends actually. They've had a better time in Istanbul's GLBT scene than in the US (though they are Latino in origin and I've heard American Gay culture has a bit of a race problem)

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#67

Post by rayiner » Mon, Jan 16, 2023, 7:49 PM UTC

WeylandYutani wrote: post #34

rayiner wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> His English is very good, but the concept of inalienable rights, freedom of speech, and freedom to yell at our politicians .. he was intellectually incapable of understanding this, his society had brainwashed him so thoroughly. I don’t think that’s a charitable or logical framing of his point of view. Unless you’re religious—which the American framers were—“inalienable rights” are an illogical concept. In the state…

You will get a lot of hate for this but I must admit: What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia? Individuality seems to have been invented and embraced by European and American intelligentsia.

Western individualism, like nearly every other aspect of western culture, has its roots in Christianity. Europe had already diverged long before the “intelligentsia” you’re talking about.

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#68

Post by venv » Mon, Jan 16, 2023, 7:49 PM UTC

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #55

blhblah12345 wrote: post #4

[flagged]

> I recently tried explaining the 1st amendment to a Syrian CS student of mine. His English is very good, but the concept of inalienable rights, freedom of speech, and freedom to yell at our politicians .. he was intellectually incapable of understanding this, his society had brainwashed him so thoroughly. Have you tried explaining them to your liberal friends in San Francisco? Their English is probably even better,…

[flagged]

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#69

Post by throwaway09223 » Mon, Jan 16, 2023, 7:51 PM UTC

blhblah12345 wrote: post #17

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just one? Honest question, how does Jordan fare in democracy?

You should ask the king that question.

Plenty of democratic countries have monarchs. Most of Europe still has monarchs, because they're constitutional monarchies -- which is a fairly common democratic form of government.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_monarchy

What matters is not whether there is a king, but the details of how the specific powers are allocated between the different parts of government. Sweden is also a constitutional monarchy, with a king.

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#70

Post by CyanBird » Mon, Jan 16, 2023, 7:51 PM UTC

blhblah12345 wrote: post #31

tboyd47 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Islam brought the concept of "inalienable rights" to the West. The West still doesn't get it because in their system, emergency powers override every "inalienable right" the Westerners think they are entitled to.

I like to suck dick. If I get caught sucking dick in a Muslim country, I die. If I suck dick in the west, maybe I get my own dick sucked in return. Tell me again about the freedom of the islamic world.

>freedom

Parent comment did not use this word

Don't be an asshole