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Wyoming senators want to phase out sales of EVs

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Re: Wyoming senators want to phase out sales of EVs

#21

Post by zaroth »

It’s exactly as absurd as the alternative legislation to “phase out” (what a bizarre turn of phrase) ICE vehicles. And I say this as an EV owner.

The concept of banning one tech or another in this way is backwards thinking and stems from ignorance of the power and beauty of market economics.

People (in the aggregate) will buy the products that work best for them at the price they can afford.

Now it’s true those products often have externalities, sometimes even directly harmful to the people that are buying them! (e.g. fast food)

Except in the gravest product safety sense, these products should be left to compete with each other in the great world marketplace.

The aim of government should be to subsidize the innovations that make products with the best externalities safer, cleaner, faster, better, cheaper, etc. to the point where they can stand alone and win in the open market.

In the case of EVs, what we need is not bans on ICE vehicles in some ever closer looming date. What we’ll need is massive infrastructure improvements to support the intrinsic demand for the truly better/cheaper/faster/safer product.

The initial round of subsidies have more than achieved the boost up the learning curve to make these products ultra competitive.

We are rapidly approaching the point where the only reason someone wouldn’t by an EV is because either it’s truly inappropriate for their use case (see: plows in NYC) or they simply don’t have a convenient way to charge it.

Re: Wyoming senators want to phase out sales of EVs

#22

Post by phpisthebest »

_fizz_buzz_ wrote: post #11

Yeah, that is not going to happen. The momentum that EVs have at the moment, I would be surprised if there even is a mainstream ICE car available in 2035.

There are still very serious concerns with Used Market values, and the ablity for people to not buy a ticking time bomb that is a battery replacement on the used market

Unless that is solved EV;s will never break 20-30% of sales

Re: Wyoming senators want to phase out sales of EVs

#23

Post by JohnBooty »

Misleading headline. "A group of state legislators propose a law" != "State ABC wants to XYZ"

This is a law proposed by a small group of state legislators. Of course, all laws start as bills like this. But most bills never become law.

A more responsible and less sensationalistic story would talk about the level of support for such a bill, its chances of becoming actual law, its constitutionality, and so on.

This is newsworthy, but not when reported like this.

Re: Wyoming senators want to phase out sales of EVs

#24

Post by seanmcdirmid »

phpisthebest wrote: post #22
_fizz_buzz_ wrote: post #11

Yeah, that is not going to happen. The momentum that EVs have at the moment, I would be surprised if there even is a mainstream ICE car available in 2035.

There are still very serious concerns with Used Market values, and the ablity for people to not buy a ticking time bomb that is a battery replacement on the used market Unless that is solved EV;s will never break 20-30% of sales

Used cars are already ticking time bombs because of the engine, transmissions, etc…being able to measure battery wear definitively without hiring an mechanic to closely go over it actually makes an EV a much safer used car buy than an ICE.

Re: Wyoming senators want to phase out sales of EVs

#25

Post by azinman2 »

_fizz_buzz_ wrote: post #11

Yeah, that is not going to happen. The momentum that EVs have at the moment, I would be surprised if there even is a mainstream ICE car available in 2035.

That’s a little more than 10 years. The charger networks, battery issues in the cold, availability of the raw materials, etc won’t scale that quickly. It’ll probably take closer to 20 years for the tipping point to be reached.

Re: Wyoming senators want to phase out sales of EVs

#26

Post by rsj_hn »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #18
rsj_hn wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I very much doubt this will happen. Toyota announced it will continue to produce ICE cars, and other major manufacturers will walk back their vague "goals" once the utopian goals are revealed to be impractical. Or perhaps the goals will just keep getting pushed forward and there will be lip service paid to them during the annual Davos conferences. Several US automakers may not make it, though. They are long past thei…

Scroll down to the part of my below citation where each jurisdiction is identified with new combustion vehicle sales bans. This forces auto supply chains to reconfigure or die. Some jurisdictions might walk their bans back, but you only require a critical mass of the total addressable market to stick to it for it to remain effective. “As California goes, so goes the nation.” and all the jazz. https://en.wikipedia.org…

Scroll down to the part where something was actually enacted as opposed to being promised to be enacted long after the legislators leave office. These "plans", "pledges" are about as reliable as carbon net zero promises. It is purely performative. You may not have noticed, but carbon emissions keep going up. As does coal use [https://www.iea.org/news/the-world-s-coal-consumption-is-set...].

But lets have another pledge, it will all be phased out in 2040!

Also, the part about California leading the nation has stopped being true a long time ago. California is an object lesson in government dysfunction, wacky ideas, a crazy, utopian electorate that is disconnected from reality and a shrinking population as people flee to more sane jurisdictions where things actually work. It is by far the most hated state in the nation, and is generally used as a slur.

Re: Wyoming senators want to phase out sales of EVs

#27

Post by toomuchtodo »

rsj_hn wrote: post #26
toomuchtodo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scroll down to the part of my below citation where each jurisdiction is identified with new combustion vehicle sales bans. This forces auto supply chains to reconfigure or die. Some jurisdictions might walk their bans back, but you only require a critical mass of the total addressable market to stick to it for it to remain effective. “As California goes, so goes the nation.” and all the jazz. https://en.wikipedia.org…

Scroll down to the part where something was actually enacted as opposed to being promised to be enacted long after the legislators leave office. These "plans", "pledges" are about as reliable as carbon net zero promises. It is purely performative. You may not have noticed, but carbon emissions keep going up. As does coal use [ https://www.iea.org/news/the-world-s-coal-consumption-is-set... ]. But lets have another pl…

California is the world’s fourth largest economy and has 12% of the US population (39 million compared to the 600k folks living in Wyoming). It’ll continue to be an economic powerhouse long after people complaining online about the state are gone. If complaining makes you feel better, do so, but it doesn’t change the facts. It’s certainly not going to hurt California [1].

Edit: I have never lived in California.

[1] https://youtu.be/LlOSdRMSG_k

Re: Wyoming senators want to phase out sales of EVs

#28

Post by oceanplexian »

hef19898 wrote: post #6
superkuh wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely performative, just like the similar legislation by nation states and US states trying to make internal combustion cars illegal. California has the infrastructure and population all squeezed into valleys/coastlines combined with very temperate climate making it perfect for EVs. Wyoming has it's population spread out equally everywhere and has little EV infrastructure and terribly cold climate. But neither o…

Doesn't matter, most big car OEMs are going to stop ICE production somewhere around he 2035 mark anyway, whether there are laws or not. Doesn't mean it illegal to own old ICE vehicles so, just that there won't any new ones being sold anymore.

It will take several decades to upgrade the grid to handle EVs. Look at places like California where the grid can’t even keep up with air conditioners, and they want to charge tens of millions of cars with it?

Building power plants and electric infrastructure takes decades. And if electricity is less reliable and more expensive than gasoline (which is what will inevitably happen in any market where demand is greater than supply), then there’s no economic incentive for anyone to buy EVs.

Re: Wyoming senators want to phase out sales of EVs

#29

Post by whydoyoucare »

zaroth wrote: post #21

It’s exactly as absurd as the alternative legislation to “phase out” (what a bizarre turn of phrase) ICE vehicles. And I say this as an EV owner. The concept of banning one tech or another in this way is backwards thinking and stems from ignorance of the power and beauty of market economics. People (in the aggregate) will buy the products that work best for them at the price they can afford. Now it’s true those produ…

Or they don't wish to buy an EV. The choice should remain. Someone supporting a ban on gas vehicles because it is harmful to the environment, should also be ready to support similar bans on cigarettes, alcohol and fast food, because they are directly harmful to us.

Re: Wyoming senators want to phase out sales of EVs

#30

Post by ElfinTrousers »

belter wrote: post #20
cs702 wrote: post #5

The stated goal, according to the legislators proposing this, is to "ensure the stability" of the oil and gas industry. Humankind's ability to reach new heights of stupidity never ceases to amaze me.

This a case where I would support to elect ChatGPT as next Governor of Wyoming...

I'm not a big ChatGPT fan, and I agree. Other improvements would include me, my neighbor, my neighbor's toddler, or my neighbor's cat.
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